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#31 FrankRizzo

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Posted 20 April 2006 - 05:17 AM

aparantly (acording to conspiracy theorists) a load of Technology students in America started running thier cars on Hydrogen in the 1970's only to have thier Houses burnt down.
probarbly a load of rubbish



Absolutely a load of rubbish. It takes more energy to free a mole of hydrogen from its feed-stock than is gotten from the utilization of it in a vehicle (fuel cell or burning). The only real gain from a hydrogen economy is the reduction in emissions from the vehicles utilizing it as a fuel source. Unfortunately, that pollution is made-up for at the power plant that feeds the electrolysis or hydrocarbon-cracking plant. So, instead of a bunch of vehicles spreading the pollution out over a city, it's all concentrated at the power plant where possibly it can be better managed with electrostatic scrubbers or whatever in the stacks.

Technological advances with fuel cells probably show the most promise as the feedstock is converted to energy with much greater efficiency than simple burning. Precious metal catalysts are the current hang-up since the available supply isn't great enough for total conversion of the world's vehicle fleets.

Edited by FrankRizzo, 23 April 2006 - 10:37 PM.


#32 p_y_r_o

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Posted 20 April 2006 - 05:43 PM

I did'nt say it was more enviromentally friendly just new technology that was a lot cheaper than petrol.

#33 Phoenix

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Posted 21 April 2006 - 09:23 AM

Sure, burning oil to make hydrogen to run cars would be about as efficient, oh, say, burning coal to boil water to generate electricity to boil water, and you'd have to be crazy to do that (...oh..erm...yes).

Seriously though, the point of hydrogen would be that it could be produced with electricity from renewable sources such as wind or solar, (or nuclear energy, which whilst not renewable has certain advantages over fossil fuels - but that discussion is something of a "Pandora's Box" which has been opened here before) as a more concentrated and convenient means of storing the power than batteries. At the moment the technology for doing this and using the hydrogen (fuel cells, metal hydrides) is pretty expensive, but should hopefully become less so with further research (and of course as fossil fuel prices rise it will become more competitive)

The other renewable replacements for petroleum are of course biofuels. Petrol cut with a little ethanol is now available in quite a lot of UK garages (not sure, but I believe Tesco are selling it in some places??). I recently read about something rather interesting; a genetically modified yeast has been developed that is able to break down cellulose as well as sugar. Cellulose is of course an abundant waste product. The new yeast is able to produce ethanol from straw - pretty handy. However, at the moment the developers are being somewhat cautious, as they're not quite sure what would happen if it were to escape into the environment. With or without the new super yeast, biofuels are likely to be a major replacement for fossil fuels; even Bush acknowledges that.

#34 zookeeper

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Posted 22 April 2006 - 05:49 AM

Fuel, in New York State, is now at $3.17 per gallon

THAT'S IT! I'M WALKING!

Edited by zookeeper, 22 April 2006 - 05:51 AM.


#35 pyrotrev

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Posted 22 April 2006 - 09:47 AM

Fuel, in New York State, is now at $3.17 per gallon


.....Still about half the cost here in the UK
Trying to do something very beautiful but very dangerous very safely....

#36 fishy1

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Posted 22 April 2006 - 08:29 PM

Fuel, in New York State, is now at $3.17 per gallon

THAT'S IT! I'M WALKING!



can/do americans use bikes? or public transport?

Edited by fishy1, 22 April 2006 - 09:21 PM.


#37 EnigmaticBiker

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Posted 22 April 2006 - 09:07 PM

I recently read about something rather interesting; a genetically modified yeast has been developed that is able to break down cellulose as well as sugar. Cellulose is of course an abundant waste product. The new yeast is able to produce ethanol from straw - pretty handy. However, at the moment the developers are being somewhat cautious, as they're not quite sure what would happen if it were to escape into the environment.

Interesting development, where did you read that?
I guess they'd have to make sure it couldn't survive outside the lab/plant.


#38 FrankRizzo

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Posted 23 April 2006 - 12:18 AM

http://running_on_al...d.com/id37.html

#39 EnigmaticBiker

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Posted 23 April 2006 - 12:57 PM

http://running_on_al...d.com/id37.html

Thanks, really interesting page.
I have a friend who runs old military/marine diesel engines on veg oil blend sucessfully.

I'm sure the GMO yeasts will be important when they've sorted out the safety aspects and "ironed out the bugs" :P

(sorry, I couldn't resist it)


#40 Phoenix

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Posted 23 April 2006 - 09:04 PM

Yeah, that's the page.

#41 FrankRizzo

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Posted 23 April 2006 - 10:42 PM

I did'nt say it was more enviromentally friendly just new technology that was a lot cheaper than petrol.


It's not cheaper if it's less efficient. When you have to use petrol or by-products like natural gas to produce the energy necessary to run the processes to create the hydrogen, it seems rather silly doesn't it?

#42 zookeeper

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Posted 24 April 2006 - 05:23 AM

can/do americans use bikes? or public transport?


I live in the country, so there are no buses, subways or trains :angry:

Soooo....took the bike to work today B)

....got rained on :unsure:
....almost got hit by several speeding cars :blink:
....got chased by a very unfriendly dog :o

Had to shower and change clothes, when I FINALLY got to work :blush:

I think I will just have to shell (pun intended :lol: ) out some more dollars for fuel, and have to cut other spending...BUT I think I will live longer :wacko:

#43 r.burgy

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Posted 26 April 2006 - 09:05 PM

have no fear uncle georgey( Bush that is )is getting right on this gasoline issue. hes going to take away the massive tax breaks he gives all of his buddies. This is going to bring down oil prices. however, its not going to affect the prices this summer.Perhaps they will start going down just in time to start another war. Can anyone forward me a classified list of homes for rent in the UK.
thank you

#44 neo

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Posted 27 April 2006 - 12:03 PM

Fuel, in New York State, is now at $3.17 per gallon

THAT'S IT! I'M WALKING!


hey, you should'nt complain. here in sweden the price is about 1.5$ a liter, that is just under 6$ per gallon (US gallon..)
but then.. I don't have a car so it don't bother me =)

anyway.. this must be the most off topic thread I've read! 1,5 pages about fuel prices in a twin tower thread :) funny
Pyrotechnics, the art of fire!

#45 EnigmaticBiker

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Posted 27 April 2006 - 12:25 PM

anyway.. this must be the most off topic thread I've read! 1,5 pages about fuel prices in a twin tower thread :) funny

Sssh! I don't think the mods/admins have noticed yet. :ph34r:

I'm sure we could get onto methane gas production and keep it going until the next war (Iran) before they shut it down.

I wonder if this could be a BPS off topic record :P





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