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#1 YT2095

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Posted 25 June 2007 - 06:48 PM

I`ve had a search on here and nothing quite hits the mark for a topic to post this, but the SFX sub-fora is ideal, this is a post taken from another site (we can do SOME pyro stuff there) that I`m a member of, I think it belongs Here with You more than it does there.
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you`ve seen Magicians use this stuff on stage etc... it looks like a sudden bright yellow Flash often from their hands during certain tricks, you Can buy this paper but it`s Very expensive and you only get a small amount.

for this experiment you`ll need a flask or beaker with a lid.
50ml of 98% sulphuric acid.
50ml of 70% Nitric acid.
several sheets of 2 ply toilet paper.
a pyrex casserole dish with lid.
a glass stir rod.
a good 50g of Sodium Carbonate (washing soda).
either a bucket of water or access to fresh running water.
the obvious safety goggles, apron/lab coat, gloves.

in the flask put your 50ml of nitric acid, then add the sulphuric acid gently.
it Will get warm! that`s normal, just allow it to cool to room temp with its lid on.

take 6 sheets of 2 ply toilet paper separated as individual sheets, make 2 piles of 3 sheets.
in the glass casserole dish pour a third of you acid into the bottom, then lay one pile of the sheets onto it, then pour another third of the acid mix ontop of that and then add the next pile of sheets.
pour the remaining acid mix ontop of that.
using the glass rod carefully make sure all the sheets are soaked in this mix, being carefull not to rip the paper, and then put the lid ontop of it all.
this proccess will make much acid vapor seen as a white "smoke" so use a fume hood or do this outside!

you can leave your sheets now for 10 to 15 mins, leaving it longer doesn`t improve the effect at all and there no gain to be had doing so.

your paper will have changes color somewhat by now and taken on an almost Plastic type texture, remove the lid and submerse the whole dish under water (in your sink or bucket), stir very gently and then lift the sheets out with the glass rod, don`t worry if they all seem to be stuck together, that`s perfectly normal!.
wash your casserole dish out with plain water, then put your sheets back in it along with the Sodium carbonate then add enough water to dissolve the sodium carbonate and cover the sheets.
Fizzing will be seen as the remaining acid is being neutralised.
at this stage with gloves on it will be possible to separate each individual sheet, being careful not to tear them as they are quite brittle at this point, leave then in the carbonate to soak until all fizzing has stopped. the paper and liquid will take on a darker color, (yellowish).

then take them out 1 as a time and wash then under fresh running water and pat dry with a towel.

leave them to dry in a warm place, you`ll notice that when they`re 100% dry they seem to get much softer and not as brittle, it`s even possible with care to split the double ply in each sheet making 12 thin sheets.

store these in a zip-lock plastic bag, and only take one sheet out at a time, don`t light any near the entire pile!

for lighting take hold of a sheet by a corner, use a lighter or a Cigarette to ignite the opposing corner and let go, it`ll have vanish long before it`s hit the floor! and the brightness is incredible!
it burns that fast that a small piece gently crumpled up can be lit on the palm of the hand with no burning or ash or even smoke (although do some tests before trying this!).

for the more Adventurous Chemist, you can use an equal mix of Strontium and Potassium carbonate as the neutralising base and get a Red color flash from the paper too :)
barium works also, but a White rather than a green seems to be the outcome.

do NOT try and store this paper for more than needed, this paper takes such a short space of time to make, that Storing it should never be an issue anyway.

Enjoy, but Play Safe!

http://yt2095.net/Flash.avi

a quick vid of the effect.
"In a world full of wonders mankind has managed to invent boredom" - Death

#2 Resix

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Posted 25 June 2007 - 08:36 PM

I'd like to be the first to thank you. Flash paper is much too expensive.

Thanks.

#3 fishy1

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Posted 25 June 2007 - 09:52 PM

I could be mistaken, but I thought an ice bath was commonly used to cool the reaction, and prevent a runaway.

#4 BlackSky

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Posted 26 June 2007 - 12:29 AM

This is Nirtocelliulose preparation NOT a flash. NC is a High Explosive.
More over both NC and flash are not welcomed to be discussed here as I know !
.

Edited by BlackSky, 26 June 2007 - 12:35 AM.


#5 YT2095

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Posted 26 June 2007 - 08:48 AM

NC is Not a high explosive at all, and flash paper is found at any magicians or special effects shop and may be purchased by anyone over 18.

I have no interest in explosives, and don`t even particularly like loud salutes and reports made with Pyro comps, this is quite Tame.
as for the ice bath, it`s not needed in this prep, it`s only low level estrification and over a large surface area, runaway doesn`t occur.


the part I found of particular interest is the fact that by altering the neutralising soln, you can effect the color of the flash quite significantly, the Strontium seems to have the most impact on color, the barium gets washed out a little to make a White with a hint of green.

be careful with the Barium, even though the paper itself leaves no ash residue, there will be traces of Barium left over after, so this is best done outside.

edit: this may be of interest, http://en.wikipedia..../Nitrocellulose

Edited by YT2095, 26 June 2007 - 08:49 AM.

"In a world full of wonders mankind has managed to invent boredom" - Death

#6 rocket

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Posted 26 June 2007 - 10:31 AM

It is a HE as it does detonate, hit some NC hard enough with a hammer and it will go bang. How ever thats went its highly nitrated IIRC its around 13-14%, lower levels of nitration are use for thins like pin pong ball, lacquers etc. Also when making small synths of it you wont need a ice bath but with larger ones you will as you can get hot spots. I could add more but I don't think I should as its not what this forum is about.

Edited by rocket, 26 June 2007 - 10:34 AM.


#7 BigBang

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Posted 26 June 2007 - 12:49 PM

You dont need to go to those lengths to make flash paper. There is a much simpler/cheaper/safer method.

Just soak your tissue paper in a strong solution of sodium chlorate and dry, and thats it!! Once dry, you need to store in an airtight container, as sodium chlorate is hygroscopic. You get a nice orange flame. Be careful tho, coz it does burn extremely fast! Also, sodiun chlorate is cheaper/easier to come by than nitric/sulphuric acids.


The only thing is you cant use weedkiller grade sodium chlorate coz it contains fire retardent, it needs to be fairly pure.

I make flash paper quite regularly for a magician pal of mine using this method, and it works just as well.

#8 YT2095

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Posted 26 June 2007 - 01:02 PM

I`ve done the chlorate thing in the past and it struck me as just fast Touch paper, and it leaves quite a bit of Very hot residue behind and smoke.
although large sheets of it over a gerb frame is quite an impressive way to light them at nearly the same time, looks much better and more visually stunning than quick-match :)

as for the weed killer idea, the retardant isn`t too much of an issue there, depending on who supplies it, it will NaCl or Na2CO3. eitherway you can exploit solubility difference and use fractional crystalisation, Or just convert it to KClO3 instead and the work`s done for you :)

Edited by YT2095, 26 June 2007 - 01:05 PM.

"In a world full of wonders mankind has managed to invent boredom" - Death

#9 BigBang

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Posted 26 June 2007 - 02:40 PM

I think it just depends on the type of tissue used. Ive tried a few different types, and the best ones are the more expensive kitchen towels. It leaves no residue, except for a slight white mark, which is 'salt', and burns very fast. Just to give an example, a piece of kitchen towel, which i guess is about 1ft square, goes up in less than 1 second....thats pretty fast! You wouldnt want touch paper that fast!!! And if you roll it up loosely into a tube, it goes MUCH faster. It does however produce a fair amount of smoke. which is an advantage if you are on stage. Its more impressive.

The only disadvantage is that it burns very hot!

Maybe yours didnt work very well coz you used weedkiller grade maybe?? My sodium chlorate is LR grade, which is about 99.8%pure.

#10 YT2095

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Posted 26 June 2007 - 02:56 PM

I have used weedkiller and that`s even below Technical grade, so I agree there :)
but no, I have Lab reagents here for the most part and AR for the rest, there`s very little I have of Technical grade in the Lab, I`ve tried both, and still get a residue, whereas the proper flash paper leaves nothing at all (beyond gases), and although quite hot, burns far too bright and fast to burn your hand (placed on top and not restricted).

oddly the Hammer test as mentioned above, Chlorate paper will go Bang, the Flash paper does not :)
"In a world full of wonders mankind has managed to invent boredom" - Death

#11 BlackSky

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Posted 26 June 2007 - 04:50 PM

NC is Not a high explosive at all, and flash paper is found at any magicians or special effects shop and may be purchased by anyone over 18.


NC can be detonated or burned. If it burned , it will work as a LE but if it detonated, It will work as a HE. ;)

Regards

#12 YT2095

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Posted 26 June 2007 - 05:00 PM

can you cite a Source for this? Idealy one that doesn`t include NG being added to it.
I`de be interested in seeing that, and of course with all HE and certain density must be achieved as well as a critical diameter taken into account, I cannot see that EVER happening with a few sheets of Magicians Flash Paper.

I would like to read evidence to the contrary! Thanks :)
"In a world full of wonders mankind has managed to invent boredom" - Death

#13 karlfoxman

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Posted 26 June 2007 - 05:35 PM

I have no problem with Magicians Flash Paper, but do not talk about HE on this forum. Its obvious YT2095 is talking about Magicians Flash Paper and not anything to do with making HE devices. Lets leave it at that and continue this discussion on the subject it was about, NOT HE!!!

Thankyou.

#14 YT2095

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Posted 26 June 2007 - 06:08 PM

Cheerz, I was getting a little worried myself for a bit!

as far as I can tell, when Carbon burns it emits an Orange color into the spectral band, and That`s what seems to drown out the Green from the Barium, BaCO3 isn`t all that Basic either so perhaps the Hydroxide of it may do a better job??? again, that`s another one up for experimentation.

I Have seen for sale a Blue flash paper and have no idea HOW they could make that work! I wouldn`t mind owning a little and analysing it in the Lab :)
actually I think I`de probably use most of it in pure amazement and end up with very little to test, but hey, that`s what`s pyro`s about :)

Edited by YT2095, 26 June 2007 - 06:09 PM.

"In a world full of wonders mankind has managed to invent boredom" - Death

#15 karlfoxman

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Posted 26 June 2007 - 07:16 PM

Blue flash now theres something I want to try in my Beraq, I dont want to be using Potassium chlorate or Paris Green though! If you any ideas let me know. I have some copper oxychloride now :rolleyes:




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