Possibility of starting a new firework manufacturing business

I think you guys underestimate the amount of manual labor you're going to have to do. I would imagine the way to go about this would be to start with larger specialty shells to establish yourselves and get some bank roll. After that you can start investing and experimenting with machinery to automate cake manufacture. Cakes probably just wont be as profitable as there is just more work involved.

Even if you get things going, it's going to take a while to get things consistent and up to par quality-wise. I hate to say it, but you guys may think you're good, but on a professional level it is a whole different ball game. There is an additional level of precision and consistency that we just don't have to deal with.

Edited by Mumbles, 07 July 2010 - 05:57 PM.

I think you guys underestimate the amount of manual labor you're going to have to do. I would imagine the way to go about this would be to start with larger specialty shells to establish yourselves and get some bank roll. After that you can start investing and experimenting with machinery to automate cake manufacture. Cakes probably just wont be as profitable as there is just more work involved.

Even if you get things going, it's going to take a while to get things consistent and up to par quality-wise. I hate to say it, but you guys may think you're good, but on a professional level it is a whole different ball game. There is an additional level of precision and consistency that we just don't have to deal with.

I absolutely agree with your comments. I believe a number of people on this thread are under estimating the requirements significantly. "I will simply knock up a machine to do it" shows that they have no experience of development of industrial equipment let alone the time money and legislative constraints they will have to satisfy especially in this application.

CCH, why would you write the control for an industrial machine in JAVA, it simply is not suitable for mission critical applications. The easiest way would be using industrial computing such as PLC's programed in a modern ladder logic such as Rockwell Siemens or even a lower cost Mitsubishi Q series. That's how pretty much every bit of industrial equipment I specify is run.

Edited by digger, 07 July 2010 - 06:16 PM.

you misunderstood me I'm awear you would use either NUM or PLC control (although im the first to say this isn't my area), i was referring to the idea of a website, if a java app could be designed to right the control for the line say for some of the Siemens controller's.

so you would have a bare bones sudo code for the design of the cake and then a java app to slot in the requirement of the customer from their input from the website.

result being a customer control program for this customer with no input from an engineer.

as for under estimating the pyro side, i have not even a fraction of a % of the knowledge needed to do this, i cant even get a rocket working right.

what I'm saying is if the skills are their in the UK, maybe this site, i would be an amazing opportunity for the members to come in at the start of a company and for the industry as a whole within the UK.

i would love to be apart of it if it does happen, but by no means do i think i have the skills to just site there and do it, but i do feel i could contribute to a team that can.

you misunderstood me I'm aware you would use either NUM or PLC control (although I'm the first to say this isn't my area), i was referring to the idea of a website, if a java app could be designed to right the control for the line say for some of the Siemens controller's.

so you would have a bare bones sudo code for the design of the cake and then a java app to slot in the requirement of the customer from their input from the website.

result being a customer control program for this customer with no input from an engineer.

as for under estimating the pyro side, i have not even a fraction of a % of the knowledge needed to do this, i cant even get a rocket working right.

what I'm saying is if the skills are their in the UK, maybe this site, i would be an amazing opportunity for the members to come in at the start of a company and for the industry as a whole within the UK.

i would love to be apart of it if it does happen, but by no means do i think i have the skills to just site there and do it, but i do feel i could contribute to a team that can.

I have 10 years experience programming PLC's and I have never seen it done like that. I see what you are getting at, but you are starting to talk lights out production. That is mega bucks, I doubt anyone here would be able to get the financial backing for such a scheme. There are far less risky ways (in a business sense) to make money if you have that amount to invest.

Cakes, different configs e.g. fan, vertical, fanned right or fanned left and some others can be done via using simple wooden templates in the same shape. You then get the tubes dab a dozen in a slat or tray of glue and put them glue side first on a piece of card or paper which act as the separators for each section of the cake. you do this until you reach the top of the stencil and leave them to dry while you do a load more. Once dry each section is then fused and glued and fused again to transfer fire from each section. Then you have the loaders who will load the cakes and cap them and after that the packers or labellers etc.

When you have the materials at hand this process shouldn't take long and are not really what you call specialist jobs. The inserts for the cakes can be pressed in a press jig of say 50 tubes at a time to press any sort of clay delay or lift and clay delay with a time fuse. The shells can be loaded with powder and stars or other effects without to much hassle, capped and filled with fibre glass resin, clay or some other filler material for extra strength. When you work with a lot at the same time much like the Chinese things speed up dramatically anyhow and you dont want workers lazying around spending hours on one product at a time you want large production runs with good quality products that are dished out quick. The motor tubes can easily be plugged and a whole punched in them, the Chinese actually have a tool that does this!

We are looking into cake production way to much, just study the Chinese, adapt the methods and find easier and cheaper ways around it. I was also thinking about product designers online as today the internet is 'THE THING' and the only way to fully push yourself forward now. Any custom products would need to be a minimum of a few hundred or thousand depending upon the product to be feasible but will be a great facility to have on board.

As far as I am concerned no machine should handle live explosives unless it is a press, grader, mixer or some other smaller lower tech machine. Now I don't believe one should just hop straight into this business because grandpa Bernard had an amazing list of pyro formula and methods of construction etc like some factories may have done but one should really find where they can optimize formulas and also cheapen them down while keeping them effective to make the device as cheaply as possible and also as quickly as possible because. I believe you need to evaluate all processes, product lines, formula and techniques etc and find ways of always optimizing them, cheapening them and making them more effective overall constantly to keep moving forward. For instance is black powder always effective for lifting my devices if I can use less of a material that gets me better and more accurate results for a lot less money? Nope, so why keep using it?

Just my two cents . Keep it coming this is interesting.

Software wise I doubt it would be expensive to develop.

If the machine can select the tubes, assemble the rows, punch hole, add lift and add insert. Finial inspection, fusing and assembling rows can done by hand.

So your looking at preloaded rows of tubes dropping tubes into jigs

Preglued reinforcements added.

Jig punches holes

Relevant amounts of bp added

Rows of inserts drop in chosen inserts

Inspection and fusing by hand

OK here is a simple question.

How long do you think it would take to make a cake (say 30mm 50 shot)?

How much do think the materials will cost?

How much do you think a supermarket will pay for it?

Do the math and forget about it.

As said several times now there is no way most consumer fireworks are a viable option in this country period.

Yes there are some fireworks that would viable in the professional arena. But that is about it.

Economics, Simples

I 100% agree there isn't anything that can be done for supermarket, people are getting exactly what they want. Quick, cheap and cheerful. The Market to aim for is the enthusiast, someone who doesn't think twice about spending £1000 every fireworks night.

Buy giving them some contol over what they are buying I think it would give us a niche. Plus to start the cakes could be made by hand and in one off volumes until it's ampeoven demand.

But sensible never be able to compete for the supermarkets.

I 100% agree there isn't anything that can be done for supermarket, people are getting exactly what they want. Quick, cheap and cheerful. The Market to aim for is the enthusiast, someone who doesn't think twice about spending £1000 every fireworks night.

Buy giving them some contol over what they are buying I think it would give us a niche. Plus to start the cakes could be made by hand and in one off volumes until it's ampeoven demand.

But sensible never be able to compete for the supermarkets.

Kimbolten (the thinking mans fireworks) can't compete on those products and import them. So what do you think you can do better to make it viable?

Have you ever made a cake? They take ages? if you made them by hand you would have to charge more than a hundred pounds each just to cover minimum wage. That would be on a simple unit too.

Consumer fireworks, again no way. The only thing you could feasibly do is mines, big gerbs and maybe one or two other items. But that is about it

Edited by digger, 07 July 2010 - 09:17 PM.

Well that's a place to start, fact is your right as I have said I'm no pyro experts, but I'd gladly work along side those that are.

If you had a production line, jigs and set process I don't think making a cake would be so long, I think the longest part would be the inserts.

Digger, you don't exactly sugar coat it do ya . I know what you getting at, this site has a big % of amateur/ hobby Pyro, but there is also a lot of professionals like yourself, who could get something like this going. There's my 2 bobs worth, lets stay positive, it helps life go by so nicely .

Cakes, different configs e.g. fan, vertical, fanned right or fanned left and some others can be done via using simple wooden templates in the same shape. You then get the tubes dab a dozen in a slat or tray of glue and put them glue side first on a piece of card or paper which act as the separators for each section of the cake. you do this until you reach the top of the stencil and leave them to dry while you do a load more. Once dry each section is then fused and glued and fused again to transfer fire from each section. Then you have the loaders who will load the cakes and cap them and after that the packers or labellers etc.

When you have the materials at hand this process shouldn't take long and are not really what you call specialist jobs. The inserts for the cakes can be pressed in a press jig of say 50 tubes at a time to press any sort of clay delay or lift and clay delay with a time fuse. The shells can be loaded with powder and stars or other effects without to much hassle, capped and filled with fibre glass resin, clay or some other filler material for extra strength. When you work with a lot at the same time much like the Chinese things speed up dramatically anyhow and you dont want workers lazying around spending hours on one product at a time you want large production runs with good quality products that are dished out quick. The motor tubes can easily be plugged and a whole punched in them, the Chinese actually have a tool that does this!

We are looking into cake production way to much, just study the Chinese, adapt the methods and find easier and cheaper ways around it. I was also thinking about product designers online as today the internet is 'THE THING' and the only way to fully push yourself forward now. Any custom products would need to be a minimum of a few hundred or thousand depending upon the product to be feasible but will be a great facility to have on board.

As far as I am concerned no machine should handle live explosives unless it is a press, grader, mixer or some other smaller lower tech machine. Now I don't believe one should just hop straight into this business because grandpa Bernard had an amazing list of pyro formula and methods of construction etc like some factories may have done but one should really find where they can optimize formulas and also cheapen them down while keeping them effective to make the device as cheaply as possible and also as quickly as possible because. I believe you need to evaluate all processes, product lines, formula and techniques etc and find ways of always optimizing them, cheapening them and making them more effective overall constantly to keep moving forward. For instance is black powder always effective for lifting my devices if I can use less of a material that gets me better and more accurate results for a lot less money? Nope, so why keep using it?

Just my two cents . Keep it coming this is interesting.

I like this topic and your thinking. some of the processes involved in respect of many cardboard tubes glued & slotted on a balsa wood or thick card template can be bought-in, and or part assembled on site, this could include clay plugging.

Pre-punching or drilling many holes in tubes in one go is not a problem provided this is done before insertion of comps/powders.

The insertion of fuses for cake making using current methods is a lot trickier, although I think there are many other ways to experiment or approach this subject via new concepts involving the way powders/comps can be encased in film or pre-compressed & formed to ease spillage or pre-ingnition problems and its potential to cause danger when insertion by non-static material machinery.

There is also the option to look at hoppers for filling tubes with powder or comps.

Pre-scored tubes with fuses running inside the length of a tube another option to look at, i sure this could be part-automated.

I think the heath robinson approach using remote filling and cameras would be my method of approach in terms of cost and the likelyhood of destruction or safety issues whilst practicing.

As digger has said, I personally would aim for the niche or high end market/cat 4 large shell market, and not compete with the chinese on retail fireworks until trading terms/conditions change in our favour via government legislation.

Digger, you don't exactly sugar coat it do ya . I know what you getting at, this site has a big % of amateur/ hobby Pyro, but there is also a lot of professionals like yourself, who could get something like this going. There's my 2 bobs worth, lets stay positive, it helps life go by so nicely .

Hi I know i don't sugar coat it. Why bother it is better to be a pragmatist. Be realistic and there is a chance of actually succeeding.

I am not saying a factory is not possible. It most definitely is. The real issue is that a realistic analysis of what would be a good business needs to be done. As they say in Bullshit Bingo after the blue sky thinking... Pick the low hanging fruit first. There is a market for selected items at a living wage profit.

could this be a method of income for ukps. maybe 1 week coming upto fireworks night members volunteer to meet up and make Shel's and what ever else to order, those more experienced teach the rest of us and supervise.

if there is a licensed member with appropriate premises this could bring good press and maybe income to the ukps.

not to mention invaluable learning tool to members such as myself, that will probably never be in such a learning environment.

could this be a method of income for ukps. maybe 1 week coming upto fireworks night members volunteer to meet up and make Shel's and what ever else to order, those more experienced teach the rest of us and supervise.

if there is a licensed member with appropriate premises this could bring good press and maybe income to the ukps.

not to mention invaluable learning tool to members such as myself, that will probably never be in such a learning environment.

Not really. Don't forget every different device will have to have CAD documentation. If done on a device by device basis this would cost more than could be made by knocking up a couple of shells before bonfire night. If the default list disappears then this could mean that bonfire testing would have to be done for every new item.

Don't forget quality control would be a real issue under this scenario.

Then on top of this just think about the insurance implications for both the devices and the people.

This is just the tip of the iceberg.

Oh and the UKPS is a not for profit organisation. I won't go into the issues here.

The UKPS does not have the financials to be able to afford this either. We would need to have matbe 20 times more paid up members to even be able to investigate it.

Edited by digger, 07 July 2010 - 11:28 PM.