44 replies to this topic

[phildunford]

Does anyone know if you can make barium nitrate from the carbonate and nitric acid? I can get the carbonate from ceramic suppliers and I can get Nitric acid. Hard to get Barium Nitrate as it's a S1 poison...
Tried the reaction and got some c02 given off but not much carbonate disolved - know the carbonate is not very soluable - anyone know anything about this??

[BigG]

Yes, Barium Carbonate + Nitric Acid will give off Barium Nitrate.

The reaction is HNO3(Solution) + BaCO3 --> Ba(NO3)2(Solution) + H20(Water) + CO2(Gas)

So you are left over with Solution of Barium Nitrate.

Barium Carbonate will react readily with acids. The fact that you have been left with barium carbonate means that you did not have enough Nitric acid in the solution to react with the Barium Carbonate?

Now ? few points.

1) If you don?t know how to calculate how much of each chemicals you need ? you are not qualified enough to do this yourself. Look for someone who teaches chemistry and ask him/her to observe your actions.
2) If you put too much Nitric Acid - then after mixing in the barium carbonate you will still have acid left in the solution. Nitric Acid is nasty. It can happily kill you if you drink it, smell the vapours, or have large quantity spill on you. It?s better to have more barium carbonate and then filter the barium nitrate solution into a different vassal.
3) Barium Nitrate is very poisonous. Inhaling or drinking quantity of 10-15 grams will kill you. I have two friends in the USA that only wanted green stars, and had to spend two weeks in the hospital looking very green.

In short ? PLEASE don?t attempt his before you have the proper knowledge!
Wear facemask that is good enough to stop gas vapours. The one that they wear in china against SARS or those used to avoid saw dust are NOT good enough.
Wear proper chemical resistance gloves.
Have a bucket of saturated Sodium Bi-Carbonate solution in the room.
Have an Eye wash in the room.

In general ? learn to handle weak acids before dealing with strong acids.

Stay Green ? Stay Alive.

BigG

[phildunford]

Thanks for the wise advice...

However the problem is that having added what I would consider to be a considerable excess of Baium Carbonate(from the stoiciometry of the reaction) to the nitric acid (50% conc acid 50% water to slow things down a bit) I have alot of undisolved white powder (assuming this to be Barium Carbonate) and the ph of the solution is still about 2 suggesting that very little of the acid has been neutralised.

I was expecting some residue, as I assumed that the purity of the 'ceramic' Barium Carbonate was not very high - maybe 90%... However the amount of residue and the lack of neutrality of the solution seem to suggest something else is going on.

Any ideas??

[BigG]

How concentrated was the HNO3 you started with?

I don?t have experience with barium carbonate in the UK, but even the ceramic supply one should be fairly pure. Most people who induce the reaction use larger concentration (about 80% nitric acid). Since barium carbonate is hardly solvable in water, the reaction will happen mainly on the surface ? so you want to work in very small batches. Add 10grams of Barium at a time and wait for it to react before proceeding further. Also, gentle heating might help.

BigG

[Rhodri]

Good stuff from Big G.

In theory one could use double decomposition reactions to produce the salt you're after.

For example,

KNO3 + Na2C03 <-> K2CO3 + NaNO3

We want Ba(NO3)2 and it would be really cool to have Sr(NO3)2 for those reds.

Some molecular weights:

BARIUM CARBONATE
BaCO3 Molecular Weight: 197.34

BARIUM NITRATE
Ba(NO3)2 Molecular Weight: 261.34

STRONTIUM NITRATE
SrNO3 = 211.65

STRONTIUM CARBONATE
SrCO3 = 148.0

POTASSIUM NITRATE
KNO3 = 101.10

POTASSIUM CARBONATE
K2CO3 = 138.21 (anhydrous)

Assuming the Carbonate will be hydrated we have to add 1 and a half moleclues of water:

= K2CO3 = 1 1/2 H2O = 15g

(H20 = 18)

1 mole of KN03 = 101.10 g

or we could say that 101.10g of KN03 is 1 mole.

OK, off we go:

If we use KN03 as our nitrate provider

then KN03 + BaCO3 <-> K2CO3 + Ba(NO3)2

So using mole weights we would add.....

(Ba) KN03 Ba(NO3)2
197.34g + 101.10g <-> 261.34g + 138.21g

.....giving us a theoretical yield of 261.34 g of our green provider.

For Strontium we would use.....

SrCO3 + KNO3 <-> Sr(NO3)2 + K2CO3

148.0g + 101.10g = 211.65g + 138.21g

.....giving us 211.65 g of our red provider.

However, there's a BIG problem with all of this.

BaC03 (as are the majority of Group II metals) is very insoluble in water.

However, if the water were boiling you would get a certain amount into solution (will look this up for you).

You may be able to get a % of Ba(NO3)2 from the solution by recrystializing.

It's worth ago and is MUCH safer than acid salt reactions.

[BigG]

Good Idea Rhodri ? Problem is that strontium carbonate will not dissolve in water. Even in 80degrees you will get only 0.001% of strontium carbonate dissolved.

With Barium you are doing a little better ? it is hardly soluble in water but a little more soluble in ammonium nitrate solution. Mixing those two will get you Barium Nitrate and Ammonium Carbonate salts in a solution form. Here is the beauty ? Ammonium Carbonate decomposes at 60 degrees ? so you heat the solution and you are left with barium nitrate. It is still a very positionous ? but at least you take Nitric Acid out of the equation.

It is still very slow. Reports by other people suggest that heating the two salts together for 12 hours only got them about 50 grams of barium nitrate? But I guess that if supply is a problem. It will do.

There are other ways of making Strontium Nitrate ? which involve turning it into strontium oxide first. Then of course ? doing that require a quite lots of heat ? so if you have access to ?high temperature? you can have quite a nice safe way of making strontium nitrate.

Then again ? I?m not sure how much we should discuss such things on the forum. I don?t want people to burn their hands off :flames:

BigG

[Rhodri]

Big G, I know the solublity of Group II salts is pretty poor - it's just the idea of HNO3 and carbonates that concerns me.

I shall apply some thought to the subject.

Bernine, you are SO lucky being able to buy from Skylighter......I might well emigrate!

[bernie]

You seem like a nice enough fellow Rhodri. I expect the U.S. would have you. You got that big brain of yours workin' pretty good w/ all that chem stuff swirlling around up there.
Thank goodness you don't have to be an engineer to drive a car. Just gas and oil and it goes.
Florida is hot as you know what in the summer. I understand it snows in the more northern states in the winter. Northern GA. might be a good place. Them GA. Boys might not be your kind though. You will stick out like a soar thumb. It's the funny way you talk and all.

Harry of Skylighter is the kind of person that just might make it worth a visit.

[Edited on 22-5-2003 by bernie briden]

[Richard H]

Originally posted by bernie briden

Harry of Skylighter is the kind of person that just might make it worth a visit.

[Edited on 22-5-2003 by bernie briden]

Hehe, I'd love to go on a visit to toxic central

[bernie]

For the sake of clarity, H.G. lives up Virginia way. I reside in Florida. It's a two day drive from where I live. Should you ever be in Fla. look me up and I'll take you over to Disney or Busch Gardens. I'll make good on the waremelon promise if they are in season and our family will show you some southern hospitality. If there is more than one in your family, spouse and six kids ,then you can buy your own damned tickets to the amusement parks.
Should you be serious be sure to come in the fall or spring months as they are the most pleasant. Come to think of it , come in the spring. Fall is for hunting pigs and deer out in the swamp.
Sincerely, Bernie
PS I'll even put out some beer so it can assume room temperature. On the few occasions I throw one back it must be quite cold. I prefere that it has assumed the temperature of the ice that it is nestled in. Otherwise it's good quality bourbon. In a glass. All by itself. The way God intended it to be.

[Edited on 23-5-2003 by bernie briden]

[fusion121]

"However the problem is that having added what I would consider to be a considerable excess of Baium Carbonate(from the stoiciometry of the reaction) to the nitric acid (50% conc acid 50% water to slow things down a bit) I have alot of undisolved white powder (assuming this to be Barium Carbonate) and the ph of the solution is still about 2 suggesting that very little of the acid has been neutralised. "

As long as you see effervesence then the reaction is probably happening just filter off the remaining barium carbonate and then evapourate off your water, to be honest I think the eaisiest way to make nitrates is simply using nitic acid, its really not that bad as long as you only have about a 2M solution you just need more of it.

[BigG]

Fusion121. I expect a little more cautious when "brushing off" strong acid reactions. If the PH is 2, then the reaction DID NOT happen. What you will be filtering off will be nitric acid!!!

Now, if you want to add constructive ideas - great, but advising someone to "filter off" without verifying that the reaction did take place is not just a poor advise, it can also lid to someone being severely injured.

Please be more careful in the future with posts like that.

BigG

[fusion121]

I did include "As long as you see effervesence then the reaction is probably happening " and he has already said that he has diluted it by 50% it will be fine, people tend to be far to overcautious with acids especially when they don't understand their action, conc. nitric acid will turn your skin yellow but does not do much damage, conc HCL has little or no effect, its only really 98% sulphuric acid that you want to watch out for, that is nasty, these things won't dissolve off your hand (especially at pH 2)as long as you wash off with water any thats spilt on you. Furthermore when I say filter off I'm not implying he should liberally bathe himself in it, i'd expect anyone to take as much care a possible when dealing with any form of chemical reagent.

[phildunford]

Back again...

Well, I've tried gentle to moderate heating. (too much and I get Nitrogen Dioxides, so the nitric acid is still in high concentration). I get mild gassing so some reaction is still taking place. The solids separate out pretty quickly so I tried decanting about 25ml of the supernatant liquid and evaporating it. Got a very small quantity of crystals which a 'brown ring' test tells me are nitrates. Yeild is so small that I am not going to be making many green stars this way!

Still a bit surprised the reaction is so slow though.

Agree with the safety stuff, but also agree that if you use common sense there is not too much danger.

As an aside when I was a kid (30 years ago!) you could send off for any chemicals from a wonderful place called Lewis the Camera Shop in Accrington - used to get parcels including conc acids, bromine, phospherous sodium metal - you name it (happy days) Still have all my fingers and relativly few scars!

[Pyromaster2003]

UN now sells Barium Nitrate so if you have any contacts in the USA, like me:), then you may be able to get your contact to ship some over. il be doing this soon i think.:bounce: