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Inadequate(and unsafe) advice when buying fireworks


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#1 Guest_Anthony_*

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Posted 05 October 2005 - 08:07 AM

:) How many shops/garden centres and supermarkets give adequate advice to the customer when they are buying fireworks about safety distances required for garden and display fireworks? Answer;very few! Some when you ask say I don't know and scratched heads, then as a result you may get served with Cat3 25m display fireworks when you only have a small to medium garden with less than 25m spectator distance!!! The danger of that is
possible property damage from fallout, and
possible injury from falling burning debris caused to people standing too close less than 25m away.

What is needed is a training course for shops and retailers so that the customers get served with appropriate fireworks for their particular premises/grounds and use them safely of course! :D
Some of the bigger more powerful Cat3 25m stuff should definately NOT be used at less than 25m away but this is NOT always advised by the shop selling the fireworks to the customer buying them;a bit of safety advice to him/her buying from the shopkeeper wouldn't go amiss either. :closedeyes:

Edited by Anthony, 05 October 2005 - 09:38 AM.


#2 Mortartube

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Posted 05 October 2005 - 12:02 PM

I agree with your point about shopkeepers sometimes having no idea about the products that they sell.

I feel that one easy safety improvement could be written into legislation, that all cat 2 fireworks are marked with a fluorescent green circle (green for garden) on the label or the top, Minimum size 10mm diameter with 5m printed in it (in black text) and all cat 3 fireworks have a fluorescent orange/red triangle on the label or top Min 10mm size, with 25m printed inside of it.

Also these items should be separated into either separate display cases or a physical division inside the display case if only one case is being used (i.e a plywood partition), with cat 2 one side, cat 3 on the other. Also selection boxes with cat 2 & 3 mixed items must display both marks in a prominent place (i.e top of lid). A notice (DTI supplied?), about safety distances could be stuck on the display cabinet(s).

This way safety distances for each item would be instantly recognisable to both staff and consumers. Most items are capable of having 10mm of label space dedicated to this system. Any item without these marks (unless too small to hold them), could instantly be cat 4 by default. I think it's a simple system that could become ingrained into the general conciousness if it was implemented and advertised correctly.
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#3 Phoenix

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Posted 05 October 2005 - 09:13 PM

That actually sounds like a very good idea - I bet a lot of people don't really notice stuff's cat. 3 until after they've bought it. I know that it would get ignored a lot of the time, but I think it would still be worthwhile.

#4 sizzle

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Posted 13 October 2005 - 12:02 PM

I think some companies go over the top though, I'm sure i've seen a 3" cone fountain in a store and been told It's for gardens bigger than 25m before! I agree Anthony they really should have some training of some sort. It's not exactly difficult to learn about safety distances.
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#5 Guest_Anthony_*

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Posted 13 October 2005 - 12:27 PM

I think some companies go over the top though, I'm sure i've seen a 3" cone fountain in a store and been told It's for gardens bigger than 25m before!

Yeah, agree with you sizzle, i've noticed that with some companies going over the top for tiny and small not-very-powerful items;some small items are given a Cat3 25m rating but are crap and tame at 25m, look how many small contents in a Golden Lion (and some other brands) selection boxes are given a 25m rating but at 25m are anything BUT spectacular at that distance, and look how many more items by other companies (albeit small Cat3 25m items at that) are anything BUT good at 25m. :)

Edited by Anthony, 13 October 2005 - 12:48 PM.


#6 sizzle

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Posted 13 October 2005 - 12:54 PM

My garden is 20m x 10m but 6m is taken up by a garage so I have a fallout area of about 14m in my garden, I use cat 3, 25m fallout fireworks in that all the while, even if they topple my audience is always perfectly safe. I can understand having 25m for big ass 180 shot cakes and 3" shell rockets but not for things like candles and fountains, there is no need.
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#7 Guest_Anthony_*

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Posted 13 October 2005 - 01:01 PM

I can understand having 25m for big ass 180 shot cakes and 3" shell rockets but not for things like candles and fountains, there is no need.
[/quote]
True! same goes for smaller wheels and small bore cakes like small 19/18/10 and 7 shotters aka Diamond 7-shot barrage pack and small Cat3 25m rockets and small 4in mines and small 4in and 3in cone fountains plus small single shot candles, these don't exactly need the full 25m either. PS Diamond specify 5m for their 4in colour mines pack and 5m for their 7-Shot Ninja Barrage Pack. These would fall flat at 25m away. :)

Edited by Anthony, 13 October 2005 - 01:06 PM.


#8 sizzle

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Posted 13 October 2005 - 01:06 PM

Exactly, it's just these companies trying to make themselves look safety-concious to the public, I mean 5m fireworks have go it right, You do need 5m from a fountain, but not bloody 25! it's either the companies themselves or the government that is overreacting!
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#9 Guest_Anthony_*

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Posted 13 October 2005 - 01:52 PM

it's the companies themselves that is overreacting!

I can give an example;Cosmic sell their brilliant budget Cyclone Wheel in a pack of 3 in Cat3 25m ratings for ?3.99, BUT in their selection boxes give the same item a Cat2 5m rating?!?! Where's the logic in that? <_<

Also Britannia Fireworks give their Triwheels a Cat2 rating in their three selection boxes BUT sell all 3 in a pack as Cat3 25m fireworks for ?6.49 retail?!?! Tell me what the sense is in doing that if you can. :)

#10 BigG

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Posted 13 October 2005 - 02:44 PM

I can give an example;Cosmic sell their brilliant budget Cyclone Wheel in a pack of 3 in Cat3 25m ratings for ?3.99, BUT in their selection boxes give the same item a Cat2 5m rating?!?! Where's the logic in that? <_<

Also Britannia Fireworks give their Triwheels a Cat2 rating in their three selection boxes BUT sell all 3 in a pack as Cat3 25m fireworks for ?6.49 retail?!?! Tell me what the sense is in doing that if you can. :)


Anthony - I must ask. Do you actually hold the regulation that defines how class 2 and class three are being defined? It's not ONLY a matter of how strong they are, but also have to do with packing standards, labelling, fire transfer of the actual item and the item around it.

For example, certain items are unlabeled ? which makes them a class four. Put them in a proper package, with a label, do some testing on them ? and woops! They are class 2!

You can also argue that a 12mm fountain you make at home is class 2. I?m sure that under the proper testing, labelling and packing, it will be. Until you do those ? they are class 4.

The fact that an item comes from a line that makes Cat 2 item ? does not make it a cat 2 item. Only if it answers all the requirements within the standard law, then it is ? and those are not only how powerful it is.

Now, if you think its ridicules ? fine. It you don?t want to accept distances ? fine. There is really nothing I can say about it ? except that you will not have much of a case if you burn down your house.

If you argue that the regulations are too rigid ? then that is something else, but given examples of what you think should be class 2 or 3 is not valid ? you did not test those items, so you really don?t know.

#11 Guest_Anthony_*

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Posted 13 October 2005 - 02:47 PM

Anthony - I must ask. Do you actually hold the regulation that defines how class 2 and class three are being defined? It's not ONLY a matter of how strong they are, but also have to do with packing standards, labelling, fire transfer of the actual item and the item around it.

For example, certain items are unlabeled ? which makes them a class four. Put them in a proper package, with a label, do some testing on them ? and woops! They are class 2!

You can also argue that a 12mm fountain you make at home is class 2. I?m sure that under the proper testing, labelling and packing, it will be. Until you do those ? they are class 4.

The fact that an item comes from a line that makes Cat 2 item ? does not make it a cat 2 item. Only if it answers all the requirements within the standard law, then it is ? and those are not only how powerful it is.

Now, if you think its ridicules ? fine. It you don?t want to accept distances ? fine. There is really nothing I can say about it ? except that you will not have much of a case if you burn down your house.

If you argue that the regulations are too rigid ? then that is something else, but given examples of what you think should be class 2 or 3 is not valid ? you did not test those items, so you really don?t know.

I HAVE BOUGHT THESE ITEMS THAT'S HOW I KNOW SO. The labels on them are quite clear also;

Cosmic's Cyclone Wheel 3 Pack DOES have a Cat3 25m rating on the pack header and wheels,
BUT in their selection boxes they DO HAVE a Cat2 5m rating on their label.
Britannia's Triangle Wheels in their 3 garden fireworks selection boxes DO in fact have a Cat2 5m label on them,
BUT in the Britannia Fireworks Wheel Pack at ?6.49 retail the SAME WHEELS DO have Cat3 25m labels on the pack header AND labels.

If you ignored the 25m distance for the Cat3 versions of these wheels, your house would NOT burn down at all despite the warning that SPECTATORS MUST BE AT LEAST 25 METRES AWAY, but you'd be well advised to stand as far back as you can even if not 25m from them.
Tell sizzle too and answer his replies as well. :(

Edited by Anthony, 13 October 2005 - 03:03 PM.


#12 Guest_Anthony_*

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Posted 13 October 2005 - 03:12 PM

Sizzle uses small tame Cat3 at less than 25m so it's NOT just me at risk you know! Check out his replies! :D

#13 BigG

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Posted 13 October 2005 - 03:28 PM

I HAVE BOUGHT THESE ITEMS THAT'S HOW I KNOW SO. The labels on them are quite clear also;

Cosmic's Cyclone Wheel 3 Pack DOES have a Cat3 25m rating on the pack header and wheels,
BUT in their selection boxes they DO HAVE a Cat2 5m rating on their label.
Britannia's Triangle Wheels in their 3 garden fireworks selection boxes DO in fact have a Cat2 5m label on them,
BUT in the Britannia Fireworks Wheel Pack at ?6.49 retail the SAME WHEELS DO have Cat3 25m labels on the pack header AND labels.

If you ignored the 25m distance for the Cat3 versions of these wheels, your house would NOT burn down at all despite the warning that SPECTATORS MUST BE AT LEAST 25 METRES AWAY, but you'd be well advised to stand as far back as you can even if not 25m from them.
Tell sizzle too and answer his replies as well. :(

Anthony ? did you read my answer? ? I am not asking if you bought the items, I asked if you hold the regulations explaining how cat 2 and cat 3 are being decided.

I?ll try again.

Case1:

Chinese Company x (whose name I will not mention) have created a wheel, with the formulation x kno3, y sulphur, z charcoal, p titanium. It burned very nicely, and measured to have a ring of fire that can measure from side to side 3 meters. Taking into effect the flying sparks and wind, they decided it might fall outside the 5 meter area, so they classified it at class 3.

UK Company calls them and say they would like some Cat 2 selection boxes, containing similar effect, so they go with x-5 kno3, y sulphur, z charcoal+5, p titanium. This slows the wheel down, not much, bring the ring of fire to 2.6, but it still looks very similar, and they have plenty of fancy wrappers available, so they put the same name, still ? this time it?s class 2.

Case 2: A factory makes cake for professional shows. The explosive power classifies it as 1.3 ? but they don?t do any additional safety checks as they want to keep the development price low (after all, importers except a cheap price). They just put a small label ?Blossom and Thunder? and export it as class four. Suddenly, USA firm want this as a consumer firework. They are willing to pay more, so the Chinese company run some test, and discover that it can be classified as class three. Grand, every batch that goes through a test has a wrapping and warning stickers classifying it as class three, while those who are not test are sold cheaper to the professional as class four items. Same production line, same effects, still different classification?

IT?S NOT THE NAME OR THE EFFECT THAT CLASSES THE FIREWORK ? IT?S HOW IT BEEN TESTED, PACKED, LABELED OR ANYTHING ELSE THAT IS REQUIRED BY LAW.

The reason I?m making this remarks for you is because you persistently paint a picture of unreasonable and illogical classification of fireworks and their effect based on what you SEE rather then what you KNOW.

Now, based on what you SEE, you can say that this firework LOOKS weak and should require a 5-meter distance, but it is based on what you KNOW that classifications are being made.

Based on what you KNOW, you can challenge whether the regulations are justified and whether certain fireworks should be exempts and reclassified. Based on what you SEE ? you can just give your impression of the firework ? not the regulations behind it.

#14 ChesterPFX

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Posted 13 October 2005 - 04:06 PM

How about this?
You hold a fireworks display in your garden, with your friends and family watching.
Your garden is only big enough for Cat 2.
You buy a Cat 3 fountain because it doesn't look very big.
You light it and it produces a nice gentle cascade of sparks.
It then explodes because of a crack in the packed composition, throwing burning composition and debris into your audience 12m away.
How do you defend that one?

"sizzle Posted Today, 01:54 PM
My garden is 20m x 10m but 6m is taken up by a garage so I have a fallout area of about 14m in my garden, I use cat 3, 25m fallout fireworks in that all the while, even if they topple my audience is always perfectly safe. I can understand having 25m for big ass 180 shot cakes and 3" shell rockets but not for things like candles and fountains, there is no need."

Do you really not think that a 9 shot cat3 cake can fire 14m horizontally?


Oh, in answer to your original question Anthony, I totally agree. The system is a farce (infact - what system)
Mortartube's suggestion is a top idea.

#15 sizzle

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Posted 13 October 2005 - 06:47 PM

Do you really not think that a 9 shot cat3 cake can fire 14m horizontally?


I did not say I could use ALL Cat3 fireworks in the space I have. I am saying that SOME of them can be used because they are perfectly safe in that distance. I choose my fireworks carefully.

Edited by sizzle, 13 October 2005 - 06:48 PM.

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