10 replies to this topic

[spectrum]

I had the pleasure of a visit from two members of this society at our small factory this weekend, and a sincere pleasure it was. I am very impressed by the passion and professionalism which came across during our conversations. If these guys are representative of the society as a whole then I truly believe that the future of the fireworks industry is assurred.

I use the word industry deliberately, the very vast majority of those supplying fireworks today have little or no technical understanding of what they are selling and what was once an industry is now merely a trade - and a shabby one at that, some of you will reel from these comments and think I am an old misery but make no mistake, if the industry had not been destroyed for the sake of greed, many contributors to this forum would have employment opportunities here in the U.K. which have been exported to the far east

One topic of discussion was the possibility of producing British Fireworks along the lines of the designs which were satisfied generations from 1930's through to the 80's, fireworks which would be unashamedly traditional. I personally believe that there would be a market for such items and that the public are generally bored with the same old stuff which comes out of China, admittedly modern fireworks are more complex and sophisticated, however the range and diversity is no longer there.

The opinions of the readers would be valued

[Arthur Brown]

There are several highly skilled people on here, and several also with good theoretical knowledge. The MOds and forum and society "staff" are to be highly commended for the way that this place is run and the quality of members it attracts.

I find it inspiring that people who are clearly skilled professionals can mix with amateur players.


What worries me is that despite the possibilities, UK general public will see the range note the "best" but BUY the cheapest. With China having the cheapest Labour cost and the cheapest accident costs and the cheapest COSHH conformance costs. I fear there is little option to importing China Export (CE) stuff.

[crystal palace fireworks]

I had the pleasure of a visit from two members of this society at our small factory this weekend, and a sincere pleasure it was. I am very impressed by the passion and professionalism which came across during our conversations. If these guys are representative of the society as a whole then I truly believe that the future of the fireworks industry is assurred.

I use the word industry deliberately, the very vast majority of those supplying fireworks today have little or no technical understanding of what they are selling and what was once an industry is now merely a trade - and a shabby one at that, some of you will reel from these comments and think I am an old misery but make no mistake, if the industry had not been destroyed for the sake of greed, many contributors to this forum would have employment opportunities here in the U.K. which have been exported to the far east

One topic of discussion was the possibility of producing British Fireworks along the lines of the designs which were satisfied generations from 1930's through to the 80's, fireworks which would be unashamedly traditional. I personally believe that there would be a market for such items and that the public are generally bored with the same old stuff which comes out of China, admittedly modern fireworks are more complex and sophisticated, however the range and diversity is no longer there.

The opinions of the readers would be valued

Spectrum, In my opinion your dead right with your analysis, but unfortunately so is Arthur!

The cheap labour and free trade aspect of our society in the last 25 years (started by thatcher) has made it very difficult for first world countries like us to compete with the likes china on a international stage from a consumer retail level, we should have imbargo`s/controls on imported goods into this country!

Like you, I think the flash bang wallop displays of imported fireworks are becoming a bit boring, I would like to see more inovated ground base pyrotechnics (moving lancework) along with other new laser light 3D projection techniques, photoluminescent water rockets and fog machines/smoke etc.

We once did have a great tradition of firework makers/displayers in this country, - I know because my genaelogical ancestors were "Brocks Fireworks" who unfortunately sold out to Standard Fireworks in 1987.

I think basic firework making skills should be taught in secondary schools, then perhaps chemistry lessons would be more interesting, and thus the shortage of engineering based jobs in this country won`t be lost forever!

Why can`t some members of this forum get organised to get funding from the government/europe to establish non-profit making firework schools at say 6 MOD sites through out the country? this way it will drastically cut the costs of set-up!

Tell me more about your company or set-up?

regards

keith Brock

[Arthur Brown]

A while ago ( 5 years) a friend's employer moved some production to India, The entire justification for this was that the amortised labour cost for one employee and their share of the factory cost was 67 pence per day

There is NOTHING in the UK fireworks industry that can compete. As this was for a global company with a global market then it didn't matter where in the world it was made.

I suspect that the China labour cost is similar or lower AND they have a very long history of making fireworks - They may have been the first.

Also China has the cheapest regulations and COSHH practise and if a factory blows up the employees are simply "lost" and new ones brought in later. In the UK the litigation/insurance value of a life is £1M in China it is NIL.

[spectrum]

Spectrum, In my opinion your dead right with your analysis, but unfortunately so is Arthur!

The cheap labour and free trade aspect of our society in the last 25 years (started by thatcher) has made it very difficult for first world countries like us to compete with the likes china on a international stage from a consumer retail level, we should have imbargo`s/controls on imported goods into this country!

Like you, I think the flash bang wallop displays of imported fireworks are becoming a bit boring, I would like to see more inovated ground base pyrotechnics (moving lancework) along with other new laser light 3D projection techniques, photoluminescent water rockets and fog machines/smoke etc.

We once did have a great tradition of firework makers/displayers in this country, - I know because my genaelogical ancestors were "Brocks Fireworks" who unfortunately sold out to Standard Fireworks in 1987.

I think basic firework making skills should be taught in secondary schools, then perhaps chemistry lessons would be more interesting, and thus the shortage of engineering based jobs in this country won`t be lost forever!

Why can`t some members of this forum get organised to get funding from the government/europe to establish non-profit making firework schools at say 6 MOD sites through out the country? this way it will drastically cut the costs of set-up!

Tell me more about your company or set-up?

regards

keith Brock

Bravo! You speak my language. My background is with Astra, I joined the company to work under a number of former Brocks employees, Arthur Reed was our first M.D., my boss was Martin Guest. I have visited the Brocks factory at Sanquhar and met with a number of the employees there one drunken night as guest of Colin Lindsay (who I was with tonight) I will pm you and let you know what we are doing and where we are.

I do not agree 100% with everything you say. I am fully committed to manufacture and our factory has grown from strength to strength. We are most active working on export projects as we speak - so my faith in British manufacture is unshaken despite the destructive policies of some of our past politicians.

[Arthur Brown]

The problem is that the general public are the paying public most times and prefer the instant success of a single ignition cake -a display in a box! Whereas the cognoscenti like the innovative and the historic aspects too! Yes I remember "battleship and witches cauldron" animated scenes But commercially now I see cakes and shells, the detail of which is lost completely on the crowd.

Does the crowd really notice the faces, the strobing? They do however want to hear and feel the bangs.

With a moving lancework having so little compound for its display time, they should be popular! But with the labour cost of the rigging time they are not often seen.

[crystal palace fireworks]

The problem is that the general public are the paying public most times and prefer the instant success of a single ignition cake -a display in a box! Whereas the cognoscenti like the innovative and the historic aspects too! Yes I remember "battleship and witches cauldron" animated scenes But commercially now I see cakes and shells, the detail of which is lost completely on the crowd.

Does the crowd really notice the faces, the strobing? They do however want to hear and feel the bangs.

With a moving lancework having so little compound for its display time, they should be popular! But with the labour cost of the rigging time they are not often seen.

I guess your right arthur - rigging time is a issue, much of the cake type fireworks sold today reflects our society in general, ie - quick gratification, short attention span - TV watching - X factor/ Big Brother donuts of today!.

I know my ancestors were into this lancework, with a man dressed in a makeshift fire-suit of a "Policeman" etc, but so much more could so easily be done/created and incorporated into public displays today!

I remember watching the Millenium Firework display on the Thames in 2000 (obviously), and how dissapointed I was compared to the iffel tower and sydney bridge displays.

Why didn`t they create a water fall effect from tower bridge with rolling fog/smoke blown from underneath?
Why couldn`t they have started the display from two bridges away with a slow moving trail of gunpowder/visco fuse linked to fountains or mines spaced out and timed, or with the moving/spinning fireworks along cables (forget what they are called) along the centre of the river, or is all this the fault of H&S or other restrictions kicking in again?

Spectrum - I don`t expect everyone to agree with all of what I say, and im not always right!, but like you, arthur, and few others we all share a passion for fireworks, and its good to share our thoughts and ideas and frustrations about the trade in the uk - so no worrys! although I am curious to know what aspects of my previous posting you disagree with?

[Arthur Brown]

Another aspect of shows is the time taken on site. Cakes simply have to be fastened down, shells have to be fitted in mortars, but plain lancework has to be MADE, all the lances need fixing to moving or fixed frames then everything has to be fused with match.

A typical Round Tabler or Rotarian can lay some cakes out and have a great display but is unlikely to spend time with the lance pins and wooden lath.

With cakes and shells the show can be designed for viewing by thousands as they will all be looking UP, with ground based stuff not so. A flying Pidgeon or the like travels at 2 - 3m above the ground and is lost on people at the back of the crowd.

[spectrum]

I guess your right arthur - rigging time is a issue, much of the cake type fireworks sold today reflects our society in general, ie - quick gratification, short attention span - TV watching - X factor/ Big Brother donuts of today!.

I know my ancestors were into this lancework, with a man dressed in a makeshift fire-suit of a "Policeman" etc, but so much more could so easily be done/created and incorporated into public displays today!

I remember watching the Millenium Firework display on the Thames in 2000 (obviously), and how dissapointed I was compared to the iffel tower and sydney bridge displays.

Why didn`t they create a water fall effect from tower bridge with rolling fog/smoke blown from underneath?
Why couldn`t they have started the display from two bridges away with a slow moving trail of gunpowder/visco fuse linked to fountains or mines spaced out and timed, or with the moving/spinning fireworks along cables (forget what they are called) along the centre of the river, or is all this the fault of H&S or other restrictions kicking in again?

Spectrum - I don`t expect everyone to agree with all of what I say, and im not always right!, but like you, arthur, and few others we all share a passion for fireworks, and its good to share our thoughts and ideas and frustrations about the trade in the uk - so no worrys! although I am curious to know what aspects of my previous posting you disagree with?

I have read through again and I cannot see anything at second glance which I would disagree with, certainly not strongly. I agree that pyrotechnic chemistry is perhaps the most inspring aspect of the subject of general chemistry and am in no doubt that the chemists of tomorrow would benefit enormously from experiencing the thrills of practical pyrotechnic experimentation - properly controlled and in an educational establishment of course.

I do NOT agree with the notion that cheapest is best, my personal experience of China is that the end product is inferior to that which can be made in Europe - in my factory we are VERY busy and not remotely threatened by Chinese competition. You just have to look at Mattell and Disney to see what the perils are, if they can't control the Chinese who can?

[Arthur Brown]

Sadly mr and mrs pleb will still continue to argue that Woolworths or Argos is ripping them off cos the market stall has a like product for 30% less. The mattel/disney vs china incidents show exactly the problem but as the cost will be bourne by world corporations people dont see the value in money or the chinese attitude to child safety

[spectrum]

I may make a comment on another thread - I agree with your viewpoint