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#16 digger

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Posted 11 July 2008 - 08:30 PM

I will contact her again and try get her to write it down :) as I spoke over the phone with her, a lengthy 2 hour conversation :(.

1) This exemption doesn't state commercial BP it just states BP in general and to what I was told also meant home made black powder made via a person who holds a COER certificate and is less than or equal to 100g. The BP can be stored if you have an acquire and keep COER.

2) This exemption doesn't state CAT 4 fireworks but then neither does it state any hazard of fireworks so could it apply to any hazard type? this is the problem who knows the law doesn't purely specify it and this is what she said when I asked her. So I assume you can also assemble, disassemble and fuse CAT 1, 2 and 3 also because it doesn't really state otherwise. It may say for display purposes but then again you can make displays with CAT 3 also.

3) The explosive inspectorate told me I could make any composition as long as its NET weight didn't exceed 100g and with clarification from some of her other colleagues stated these could be put into devices as long as the total devices NET weight didn't go over 100g in the same building. Again the law doesn't state that you cannot make devices from these experimental compositions but just states you can make 100g of explosives. So since it doesn't specify, what exactly can we and can we not make? again who knows. Also regulation 9, paragraph 2, sub-paragraph. (a) basically says we need a COER certificate to manufacture, acquire and store the composition if it is part of the Control of Explosives Regulations, "but nothing in this sub-paragraph shall be taken as authorising any acquisition or keeping of explosives for which an explosives certificate is required by virtue of regulation 7 of those Regulations, without such a certificate;".

On site mixing licenses are useless for us pyros as it only applies to ammonium nitrate mixing for on the day use. I do not see anywhere were it states we CANNOT manufacture fireworks under 100g but then one may argue it doesn't say you can either but then this is were the solution to that argument lies... no one knows. I am by all means not an expert on the MSER but have read over it many times and also got a printed copy. What I have said above is gathered from my experience in reading MSER and from those who I spoke to from HSE, Fire Service and police.


1) The problem is that the BP that you make is not BP as it does not have a UN classification number allocated by an authorised manufacturer so you are still stuck with the 100gram limit and can't keep making 100gram batches and storing them up to the 10kg. This 10kg rule only applies to BP and shooters powders etc, so even if it did apply it would somewhat limit the effects that you could produce as it does not cover the storage of loose powders for example colour compositions.

2)Yes it does not state cat4 in the regs, but it is implied as the modification of any consumer firework be it cat 1, 2, 3 or 4 automatically renders it a cat 4 device which of course is illegal to own without the right documentation.

3)Yes I agree the 100gram rule applies for experimental purposes. But as stated this 100gram total at any one time so no storage above the 100gram limit is allowed without a manufacturing licence (read the ability to assign the appropriate hazard category and store appropriately in accordance with the given licence). Yes it could be argued that the regulations do not prohibit the manufacture of an experimental device (I have heard on the grape vine from other UKPS members that the HSE frown upon this), but if it is a 100gram flash device i think you would be on very shaky ground as it could be deemed to be an explosive deemed for malicious use which instantly put you into the terrorism laws which don't care about 100gram limits.

If you don't have it fork out the £20 for the ACOP (approved code of practice) to go with the regulations it can be bought from the HSE website ISBN no 0-7176-2816-7. Not exactly a riveting read, but it certainly helps to explain the regs especially if you intend to get legal.
Phew that was close.

#17 pyrotechnist

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Posted 12 July 2008 - 04:30 PM

It seems that who ever you speak to at HSE each explosive inspectorate gives you different answers to the same questions so what is right and what is wrong? I am going to ring up a few more times. I have told the police explosive liaison officer everything I am planning and wanting to do and he seems fine with it. Currently I am going through the process of obtaining a COER certificate and getting a visit next Friday to check my place out, so fingers crossed.

The fire service also seem to be ok with what I plan to do but need more clarification from HSE. I really do not have 1 - 2k to get a license and maybe even get refused if my neighbors (not the best kind either) refuse it.
fireworks is my aim setting of is the game

#18 nimrodmr4a

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Posted 12 July 2008 - 04:36 PM

Thanks for everyones advice. I realy seem to have struck a chord with you lot :blink: , i never thought i would get this much reaction to asking. It seems that this hobby is surrounded by rules and regs. that contradict each other, along with various loop-holes to the law. I think i will just keep low-key, and try not to get attention, and stay away from anyone who may enquire. I will stick to making small scale motors, until i have perfected the art, and no longer get CATO's :rolleyes:
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#19 digger

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Posted 12 July 2008 - 05:00 PM

It seems that who ever you speak to at HSE each explosive inspectorate gives you different answers to the same questions so what is right and what is wrong? I am going to ring up a few more times. I have told the police explosive liaison officer everything I am planning and wanting to do and he seems fine with it. Currently I am going through the process of obtaining a COER certificate and getting a visit next Friday to check my place out, so fingers crossed.

The fire service also seem to be ok with what I plan to do but need more clarification from HSE. I really do not have 1 - 2k to get a license and maybe even get refused if my neighbors (not the best kind either) refuse it.


Good luck I hope that everything goes according to plan. Keep us posted as to how things go. It would be great if you could get something in writing regarding what can and can't be done.

I was up at the site at which I intend to get a licence today to speak to the farmer who owns the neighboring land as two of his fields will be in the consultation zone (luckily no dwelling will be). He said he hated fireworks, but he had no problem with a store and and a manufacturing unit! a pretty reasonable bloke all said and done.

So now I know that I won't have any opposition from the neighbors I can get on with getting the plans together to start the application process for the various certs I will need (and the saving up for the container and mods to it for hazard type 3 storage 1000Kg, custom built mounded 30Kg steel hazard type 1 storage, a wooden workshop with ATEX approved fittings and then the costs of licences etc).

D
Phew that was close.

#20 digger

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Posted 12 July 2008 - 05:04 PM

Thanks for everyones advice. I realy seem to have struck a chord with you lot :blink: , i never thought i would get this much reaction to asking. It seems that this hobby is surrounded by rules and regs. that contradict each other, along with various loop-holes to the law. I think i will just keep low-key, and try not to get attention, and stay away from anyone who may enquire. I will stick to making small scale motors, until i have perfected the art, and no longer get CATO's :rolleyes:


Yep it certainly is a tricky issue. The problem is that I do not know anyone that has actually got legal for anything more than the 100g experimentation rule.

But I assume that the new UKPS site may help with laying the groundwork for others to get small scale units operating. From the looks of your location you are only 10 minutes from the site at Faldingworth. So you will be able to use the site for all your experimentation needs to whatever level (once you become a paid up member).

D
Phew that was close.

#21 David

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Posted 13 July 2008 - 03:14 AM

So I assume you can also assemble, disassemble and fuse CAT 1, 2 and 3 also because it doesn't really state otherwise.


I'm not sure about this, but isn't it simply illegal to disassemble and fuse Cat 1, 2 and 3 fireworks?
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#22 Arthur Brown

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Posted 13 July 2008 - 09:16 AM

Disassembly is an "act of manufacture" just like assembly and needs the same permissions. ALSO disassembly needs consideration for the fact that you may not be fully aware of the contents and internal structure of the device. That's why several disposal methods include burning the bits in a pit in the ground.
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#23 pyroduck7

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Posted 13 July 2008 - 09:49 AM

well i live in the contry and i mean, yea i do small rockets foutans ect, iv had abbout 2 accdents - 1 butning myself with a peice of fuse and 2- burning myself with bp , but i see why the law is schtchey, shuree people would say its ok to do it where i am because im in the contry, doing not much harm but if people in london start makeing m-80's attached to rockets then thats just stupid, and plusss the law wouldent be able to clasafiy what is "contryside" easiley, so bacically what im saying is i think if your not missuseing anything or going over the 100g powder rule your ok ( unless you in like london or a built up area) then just keep a low profile and your ok i mean the police arnt going to just pop round for no reason and shurch your house for no reason are thay?

#24 karlfoxman

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Posted 13 July 2008 - 10:57 AM

Pyroduck: Please use a spell checker and use grammer, I am finding it hard to read your posts.

Thankyou.

#25 pyrotechnist

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Posted 14 July 2008 - 12:55 PM

It seems you was right digger you can only have 100g stored on one site at all times and no more (the other inspector got it wrong :( but then again they all tell something slightly different) but still the inspector I spoke to seems to be slightly confused on that subject so it seems a little taboo. You could I guess register a store on another site, obtain an RCA document to transfer the compositions maybe and build the fireworks under the 100g exemption and store them on the other site which then allows you to store the 100g compositions.

The minimum requirement for a license is one manufacturing building and a store so why could they not allow for a license to build fireworks in only ONE construction building and store them in only ONE store which is alot cheaper than the full blown license for multiple buildings and stores etc.

Edited by pyrotechnist, 14 July 2008 - 12:57 PM.

fireworks is my aim setting of is the game

#26 digger

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Posted 14 July 2008 - 01:59 PM

It seems you was right digger you can only have 100g stored on one site at all times and no more (the other inspector got it wrong :( but then again they all tell something slightly different) but still the inspector I spoke to seems to be slightly confused on that subject so it seems a little taboo. You could I guess register a store on another site, obtain an RCA document to transfer the compositions maybe and build the fireworks under the 100g exemption and store them on the other site which then allows you to store the 100g compositions.

The minimum requirement for a license is one manufacturing building and a store so why could they not allow for a license to build fireworks in only ONE construction building and store them in only ONE store which is alot cheaper than the full blown license for multiple buildings and stores etc.


I understand your frustration. The problem is that they are not used to dealing with private individuals who wish to do a bit of experimentation. They are geared towards businesses who are more likely to have the appropriate facilities not to have to worry about the 100gram rule (which was probably put in there to cater for universities etc).

So what do you plan on doing now?

I can however see the need for separate storage and manufacturing buildings. If you were to have an accident whilst manufacturing with a limited amount of powder in the vicinity then you would probably survive (given working safely with appropriate risk assessments done). However if a fire were to spread to the finished item storage in the corner of the building when you had amassed 20kg - 30kg of finished items (or more) it would be a far more serious event (but if you had done a risk assessment this risk should have already been spotted and mitigated with separate storage).

This is why I have spent the last year waiting for suitable site to become available for me to go down the manufacturing licence route.

D

Edited by digger, 14 July 2008 - 06:07 PM.

Phew that was close.

#27 pyrotechnist

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Posted 14 July 2008 - 07:07 PM

I think to get a license will cost around 1 - 2k but that also depends on how well you prepare the documents to how much time is spent on the license. Then insurance and renewal cost :( so much money need to be rich or mad with money at least to do it.
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#28 digger

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Posted 14 July 2008 - 07:30 PM

I think to get a license will cost around 1 - 2k but that also depends on how well you prepare the documents to how much time is spent on the license. Then insurance and renewal cost :( so much money need to be rich or mad with money at least to do it.


But don't get disheartened, it would appear that the society will have a facility open to members in the not to distant future. Even if you can only get to it a couple of times per year, you can research and plan what you want to do so that the best possible use of the time is made.

Yep I am sure it must be possible for around that price (maybe toward the upper end of that scale) if your going to go micro scale such as a shed for manufacturing (no lighting heating etc) and small home made store (if you are OK using welding equipment). However for a reasonable sized setup I would imagine it would be pretty easy to eat up 4K - 5K.

It may sound like allot of money to spend, but how much do you spend on car insurance, car loan / depreciation, car maintenance and petrol every year? Just to run my banger and I only live 7 miles from work it costs the thick end of 2K per year all things considered.

Edited by digger, 14 July 2008 - 07:33 PM.

Phew that was close.

#29 Andrew

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Posted 28 July 2008 - 07:59 AM

we need a COER certificate to manufacture, acquire and store the composition if it is part of the Control of Explosives Regulations, "but nothing in this sub-paragraph shall be taken as authorising any acquisition or keeping of explosives for which an explosives certificate is required by virtue of regulation 7 of those Regulations, without such a certificate;".



This is a very good point, check this link for an earlier post on the same subject.

The important point to stress is that it is not very clear and many people just ignore the extra clause. Everyone needs to be aware of this requirement for a COER A&K certificate. Ignorance is no excuse, there is a lot of confusion within the CPS at present with old repealed laws being used even today to prosecute (laws repealed by MSER ironically). You cannot expect to to pull the 100g rule in court when not a lot of people even know the law changed three years ago, especially if you haven't covered yourself by using the rule properly; when they look into the change in the law they will just do you on not having a COER certificate.




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