14 replies to this topic

[David]

This really is just discussion/speculation.

At the moment there isn't really a great difference (from the perspective of the buying public) between Cat 2 and Cat 3. Guidelines state different safety differences, and the alternative names (rather vaugley) imply where/how they should be used "Garden" or "Display."

I pose this as a general point for discussion- would it help to have a clearer distinction between the two? That is to say, fireworks that are produced at source for the "Garden" market. The classic example (as hinted at on another thread) is the old british selection box. these were designed to be used in the back garden- that was the safe distance, that was the right distance to see them from. Now we see many selection boxes labelled as Cat 3- and indeed rockets labelled as Cat 2. Rockets, by default, I would say are suited to Cat 3. There are potential safety issues when 5 (or 8) m from a rocket, and given their style they are best view from much furtuer back. Put a little bluntly, some Cat 3 is perhaps not suited to the general buyer- it is really better for the user who plans a display (hence the name) and has appropriate space.

A possibility is that only specialist shops would stock Cat 3- IE the people selling these are aware of what they are selling, and can make proper recommendations about safety and performance.

But yeah, no sure if would happen, but I think it would be good to see.

What I'm not suggesting, of course, is a licence only system for buying Cat 3, that would kill the industry.

What I am suggesting is clearer distinctions- IE the consumer being sold fireworks that are suitable for the space he or she has.

One Shupermarket was doing a "mixed buy deal" that included a small selection box, some titchy rockets, a big rocket , a big fountain and two large cakes. WHY? Who exactly is that aimed at? Assuming the fireworks were to be lit off on the same occassion (which is how it was marketed- All your bonfirenight in one pack) then half of them would be inappropriate.

Really a good firework seller should begin with "What space do you have" and help the customer plan his shopping based on that. Of course, that is exactly what good firework shops DO say. Supermarkets hand you a leaflet with 2 FOR in big letters.

The worry is that at some point there will be an unfortunate and avoidable serious incident with a cake used in inappropriate space, then a media backlash "Why was he sold this" etc.

Edited by David, 03 April 2009 - 01:26 PM.

[phildunford]

What we don't need is any more bl**dy legislation...

What we do need is government/police to make people take responsibility for their actions.

It's the responsibility of the individual firing the device to do a 'risk assesment' in the god-awful modern jargon. ie to decide if it's safe to fire.

I believe the Blair/Brown government introduced more legislation than existed from all previous government from Magna Carta onward! Is the country a better place for it? No, it's a worse place. Please don't even suggest we need any more!

[David]

What we do need is government/police to make people take responsibility for their actions.

It's the responsibility of the individual firing the device to do a 'risk assesment' in the god-awful modern jargon. ie to decide if it's safe to fire.

Yes, but that "risk assesment" should, most logically, be done at the point of sale. A person should discuss with the shop his space, and the shop should recommend what is suitable for it. Good, old fashioned, customer service.

The problem is that nowadays the massive marketing machine encourages people to, literally, buy without thinking. Wow, its buy one get one free, I'll have it.

If you asked someone at ASCOS or Morrisburies if the firework you were thinking of buying was suitable for your garden, they might, if you were lucky, pick up the dummy and read the back of it to you. If they spoke English. Or they might give you a leaflet about the fireworks code.

Short term seasonal sellers/container outlet sellers etc would probably included to simply lie and say what you wanted to here - after all, if something did go wrong they would be gone with the wind after bonfire night.

The root of this is that fireworks should be sold by people who know what they do, know what is suitable and can give proper advice.

....


Or, to put slightly differently, it should be the case that if people want fireworks for their garden there is a clear and distinct product available to them- this is our Cat 2 range, for your garden.

Edited by David, 03 April 2009 - 02:16 PM.

[Spyrotechnics]

Whilst it would be great to get Cat3 out of the supermarkets/cornershops/seasonal outlets, its just not going to happen.

Fireworks in this country are quite clearly labeled and most people over the legal age to purchase them can read well enough to make an informed decision as to what fireworks are suitable for them. Sure they may not know exactly what each firework does (thats where the seller knowledge comes into it) but there is always safety distances written on fireworks so that information is always available to the customer.

Fact is many know the suggested safety distance, many ignore it.

[David]

Fireworks in this country are quite clearly labeled and most people over the legal age to purchase them can read well enough to make an informed decision as to what fireworks are suitable for them. Sure they may not know exactly what each firework does (thats where the seller knowledge comes into it) but there is always safety distances written on fireworks

A lot of retailers, especially the supermarkets, don't actually have the dummy fireworks on display- although sometimes there is a leaflet that states the safety distance (but not always.)

Even then- not all Cat 2 is suitable for back gardens, and not all Cat 3 is good enough at 25 metres.

Just my opinion, but cakes and rockets probably arn't suited to 5 m, (or is it 8 now?) and I'm yet to see a fountain that doesn't look very limited at 25m. Stuff like Brothers "Night Vision" and the Kimbolton "Mammoth Candles" look great at about 12-15m.

In the long term I'd like to see the return of the "proper" selection box- around 10 fireworks, fountains, roman candles and catherine wheels, each with a distinct effect, designed to be used for the small family back garden display- oh, and no f---ing whistles! British Bulldog had/have one which is done as an entery level "family friendly" small selection box, but let down by being remarkably poor and repetative.

Edited by David, 04 April 2009 - 02:31 AM.

[seymour]

oh, and no f---ing whistles!

I couldn't agree more!!

[Arthur Brown]

The trouble with more legislation is that it costs the manufacturers and suppliers -hence us the user.

Whether legislation makes fireworks safer is a moot point as each year You-Tube shows people using fireworks other then intended by the makers or permitted by the legislators.

Modern people expect more for their money -a home firework show in the 60s was possibly 15 single tube effects candles, comets, mines, wheels, fountains, gold and silver rains. A modern home show is 10 - 15 fifty tube cakes and some ball head rockets.

[Spyrotechnics]

Whether legislation makes fireworks safer is a moot point as each year You-Tube shows people using fireworks other then intended by the makers or permitted by the legislators.

You can't legislate for those types and alas you are always going to get them, further legislation is not what the industry needs.

[Mortartube]

What I am about to say, I have proposed before but I believe it to be a cheap and easy way to distinguish between the two categories for both retailer and consumer.

Cat 2 should have a green circle with 5M printed in it on each firework. The circle should be of a minimum size.

Cat 3 a red triangle with 25m printed in it. Again I propose a minimum size of say 1.5cm for both symbols.

Where the fireworks are too small to allow this, it must be clearly on the packaging, such as the header board of a rocket pack.

A poster explaining this should also be clearly visible near to the point of sale and the poster can give the distance measurements in both metres and feet so every age group can understand.

This could be a nationwide adopted system that could easily be printed at the manufacturers before import. Cheap and easy.

Edited by Mortartube, 04 April 2009 - 02:10 PM.

[Spyrotechnics]

seems a sensible and easy idea to adopt

[Mortartube]

How dare you call me sensible! Lol.

[Mixologist]

Good idea, a bit like traffic light packaging on food.

There is still no way of stopping Joe Bloggs buying a SIB who says he has a 1 acre garden only to go home and fire it in his 10x5m plot.

I personally think this is his stupid choice. There is no way of stopping it etiher unless more (i dont not want this cont get me wrong) legislation comes into play.

Fireworks have been on sale liek this for years, thankfully there arent too many accidents by responsible people. I think in general the public are respectfull of them and do read them and do use them as intended. It is the same story as for so many things that the stupid minority can ruin it for the majority.

in this respect maybe some new packaging would be good and maybe bring it to the attention of those who do not read carefully. The onus is ultimately on the end user to be responsible.

[starseeker]

What we don't need is any more bl**dy legislation...

What we do need is government/police to make people take responsibility for their actions.

It's the responsibility of the individual firing the device to do a 'risk assesment' in the god-awful modern jargon. ie to decide if it's safe to fire.

I believe the Blair/Brown government introduced more legislation than existed from all previous government from Magna Carta onward! Is the country a better place for it? No, it's a worse place. Please don't even suggest we need any more!

I am totally with Phil on this,we all have a brain,use it!

Another problem with your idea David is the fact that that for me my nearest firework shop is about 160 miles away,so a 320 mile round trip ?
It would spell the end of a decent home display.

I find it quite odd that a obvious firework enthusiast would be advocating more goverment control,what next,maybe we ought to get the local HSE officer to come round and measure are garden and tell use what we can use.

Total bollocks.

[Arthur Brown]

The next tampering with the regs will come with the Euro Pyro Directive. and this will come sometime soon. There is no need for further regulation, idiots will still buy what they want.

[David]

I find it quite odd that a obvious firework enthusiast would be advocating more goverment control

Total bollocks.

Except I'm not advocating that at all. Phil was adding his reply, which was not in direct responce to what I was saying.

What I'd like to see is a more consider approach to rating- and producing- fireworks based on their suitability. Many fireworks are not suitable for 5m, but I would say can be used safely at 10m, or 15m. Under current regulations there is no provision for that at all.

So what I'd like to see is a clearer distinction. At one end the small, safe fireworks that can be used in the family garden, in the middle the comet candles, fountains and rockets which require more space, and at the top end the 2KG NEC beasts that need fields. This WOULD NOT require more governement control- if anything it would if anything allow importers and distributors to be in more of a position to suggest suitable viewing distances, rather than be bound by this "cover all" 25 metres.

Edited by David, 04 April 2009 - 09:03 PM.