[PyroPDC]

could anyone tell me what the distances are for a 1.1 or 1.3 storage container to other buildings ect is.

also could someone tell me where i can download the MSER 2005 document so i can do a bit of light reading


many thanks

This post has been edited by PyroPDC: 17 September 2009 - 09:16 PM

[digger]

I am afraid it is not as simple as just safety distances. You need to consider the construction type of the buildings / mounds (pretty much required for 1.1 so planning permission will probably be required depending on your set up).

MSER by itself may not help too much however the MSER ACOP has a full list of tables at the back so you can check what category you will fall into (population densities/consultation zone sizes etc).

The MSER ACOP can be bought from the HSE bookshop online. It is well worth the £20 as it gives guidance on the HSE's interpretation of the regulations as this is the that opinion counts. Any other opinion is just that an opinion so get the book so you know how the law is applied in reality.

D

[PyroPDC]

looking up MSER Acop on the HSE website I found the tables you was referring to for a metal container un-mounded. But i need to know the neq of the max allowed to get my distances.

Now I know the maximum i can apply to trading standards for without getting HSE involved is under 2 ton but to be realistic how much can a small container hold or to put it easier how much would a small display company require because 2tons sounds a hell of a lot.

also is there anyway I could around planning permission, would a iso container be classed as a temporary structure.


many thanks

This post has been edited by PyroPDC: 17 September 2009 - 10:18 PM

[digger]

PyroPDC, on 17 September 2009 - 10:16 PM, said:

looking up MSER Acop on the HSE website I found the tables you was referring to for a metal container un-mounded. But i need to know the neq of the max allowed to get my distances.

Now I know the maximum i can apply to trading standards for without getting HSE involved is under 2 ton but to be realistic how much can a small container hold or to put it easier how much would a small display company require because 2tons sounds a hell of a lot.

also is there anyway I could around planning permission, would a iso container be classed as a temporary structure.


many thanks

You won't get the full list of tables unless you buy the book. It is well worth it. It does cover locally licensed stores too.

By the way the 2 ton limit is for 1.4 as far as I recall (I am on holiday so I don't have my copy of the ACOP to hand). I think you will find a local store very restrictive if you are going to put 1.1 in it as the max allowable amount will be minuscule. You will need to separate your storage by type to maximise your storage (Read the ACOP for details).

You do not necessarily need planning permission esp. for a 20ft ISO depending on where it is. If you are on a farm of more than 10 Acres (someone please correct this as I do not recall the exact figure) then there is no problem for an ISO.

You can have 1.1 without a bund but the safety distances are huge (think in terms of many hundreds of meters from footpaths, roads, buildings etc etc).

Just get the ACOP and spend a couple of nights reading it with your store location in mind (It is well worth it)

Here is the link to the book Click Me

[PyroPDC]

digger, on 17 September 2009 - 10:33 PM, said:

You won't get the full list of tables unless you buy the book. It is well worth it. It does cover locally licensed stores too.

By the way the 2 ton limit is for 1.4 as far as I recall (I am on holiday so I don't have my copy of the ACOP to hand). I think you will find a local store very restrictive if you are going to put 1.1 in it as the max allowable amount will be minuscule. You will need to separate your storage by type to maximise your storage (Read the ACOP for details).

You do not necessarily need planning permission esp. for a 20ft ISO depending on where it is. If you are on a farm of more than 10 Acres (someone please correct this as I do not recall the exact figure) then there is no problem for an ISO.

You can have 1.1 without a bund but the safety distances are huge (think in terms of many hundreds of meters from footpaths, roads, buildings etc etc).

Just get the ACOP and spend a couple of nights reading it with your store location in mind (It is well worth it)

Here is the link to the book Click Me

thanks i will order the book to get some more information,

Am i right in saying as long as i dont go above 7" shells and don't use products with more than 25% flash then i can keep the storage to 1.3 therefore increasing the amount allowed.

only reason i ask because iv found a farmer with quite a bit of land he is happy for me to use his land to put a storage iso container and i need to know a round about figure in distance to see if its worth me pursuing storage there or if i should look elsewhere. The exact requirements can be done at a later date.

[teaboy]

MSER 2005 Schedule 2 Reg 5(1) deals with separation distances. It's page 38 if you print it off.

There's also the MSER 2005 Guide which might be easier reading.

Kiss goodbye to the weekend...

This post has been edited by teaboy: 18 September 2009 - 10:27 AM

[PyroPDC]

teaboy, on 18 September 2009 - 10:00 AM, said:

MSER 2005 Schedule 2 Reg 5(1) deals with separation distances. It's page 38 if you print it off.

There's also the MSER 2005 Guide which might be easier reading.

Kiss goodbye to the weekend...

wow i see what you mean, going from the MSER 2005 S2 R5 book is like a different language, where as the MSER guide is plain English lol.


so after reading I would need to apply for a 1.3 store with a maximum of 999Kg of NEQ type 3 which gives me a minimum distance of 63M from other buildings. If I can get more distance then I can increase the NEQ allowed. But just under 1000Kg should do me fine I think

Interesting thing is if I hadn't gone on Illuminate consult cat 4 course I wouldn't have understood 1/2 of what was in MSER so the course is already benefiting me.

This post has been edited by PyroPDC: 18 September 2009 - 01:07 PM

[Mixologist]

PyroPDC, on 18 September 2009 - 01:05 PM, said:

wow i see what you mean, going from the MSER 2005 S2 R5 book is like a different language, where as the MSER guide is plain English lol.


so after reading I would need to apply for a 1.3 store with a maximum of 999Kg of NEQ type 3 which gives me a minimum distance of 63M from other buildings. If I can get more distance then I can increase the NEQ allowed. But just under 1000Kg should do me fine I think

Interesting thing is if I hadn't gone on Illuminate consult cat 4 course I wouldn't have understood 1/2 of what was in MSER so the course is already benefiting me.

Your ISO container does not need to have planning permission on land where it can be easilly moved, ie put it high up on breeze blocks so a lifter could easilly move it if needed. I have mine like this and was not even asked about planning permission.

75m from anything letf you have up to 2 tonnes, this is what i went for. As for 1.1 if you put any of it in your store it all becomes it so 1 cake 1.1 in the other 45 in there are all 1.1 then you over the 1.1 limit at that storage site. I think the way i read it at 75m you could have 50kg of 1.1 but i will have to check that.

Make sure you clad it out properly, do not cut corners as they wil refuse you permission. Good quality padlocks too, prerable a container with a box over the lock is wanted with a CISA type padlock then another few hefty chubbs on the arms, show them you mean business!!

I think i put in a thread a while ago what i used to clad mine (in a shopping list!) if you need any advice with that.

[Starsky72]

you may as well apply for the maximum weight that the site will allow, if you can get more than 80metres from a dwelling/road/footpath etc etc (low density) then you can apply for 2000kg, it doesn't cost any extra for a licence that states 2000kg but it does give you the extra flexibility for the busy periods

[Arthur Brown]

All depends how much pyro you want to afford to have around! Apparently you can get 8tonnes NEQ in a 40ft container packed (not stored for access!)

[Firework Crazy]

The cladding / lining has always miffed me.

As I understand it this was put in place back in the day when you could store items out of their UN cartons so that it would form a barrier between the bare metal and the firework. Now days there is severall mm of cardboard.

The other thing is that if you have an HSE licenced store they don't like you cladding it as dust and debris can get trapped behind the cladding in the voids, so you either get the insides sprayed, fill the voids or have a 75mm gap.

[PyroPDC]

well i sent 100 letter to farmers around my area and got some replies today, one of the main questions asked was if they could put a another container near it (which doesn't have fireworks in it), does the MSER quote what a building is classed as. I have read a hell of a lot of the MSER and i cant see if a another container is classed as a building.


i phoned up my local trading standards officer who deals with the explosives side and he say they have no extra requirements other than what the MSER states. (so no need for cladding ect). but he couldn't answer me if another container would be a problem. he just referred me to the MSER.

could anyone here have a answer ??

This post has been edited by PyroPDC: 07 January 2010 - 08:19 PM

[digger]

Interesting question.

What do you intend to store in the other container? and how close do you intend to site it to your 1.1 / 1.2 / 1.3 / 1.4 container (this should give you a clue to the regs). I guess it would be classed as building albeit a temp structure, so the details found in the tables at the back of the MSER ACOP should suffice.

[PyroPDC]

digger, on 07 January 2010 - 09:26 PM, said:

Interesting question.

What do you intend to store in the other container? and how close do you intend to site it to your 1.1 / 1.2 / 1.3 / 1.4 container (this should give you a clue to the regs). I guess it would be classed as building albeit a temp structure, so the details found in the tables at the back of the MSER ACOP should suffice.

i decided to go for a 1.3 / 1.4 store in the end and have a separate store on a different site for 1.1 at a later date (looking at the MSER it would limit my storage in a big way if i had just 1 item of 1.1. the other container was more for the farmer who owned the land as he said he may store things later on in the year.
the only thing on the table i saw a expernation on building was this.

Quote

MSER GUIDE
Use these distances for any dwelling, retail shop; government and public buildings, church, college, chapel, school, hospital, theatre, cinema or other building where the public are accustomed to assemble; motorway, caravan site for which planning permission for this area had been granted and on which is located an occupied caravan for a total period in excess of 28 days in any one calendar year; factory; building or works used for the storage in bulk of petroleum spirit, gas, or other inflammable substances; buildings or works used for the storage and manufacture of explosives or of articles which contain explosives.

now to me this say more for building that people can occupy, so im not sure if another container would come under this. or maybe im just reading this wrong.

This post has been edited by PyroPDC: 07 January 2010 - 09:57 PM

[crystal palace fireworks]

Yes good question,

I think your right pyroPDC,......according to one dictionary definition I read; A dwelling is a place/building/shelter to live in,...although a steel shipping container could be classed as a dwelling if it was used for that purpose, even though in essence it is a moveable temporary structure, but in your case or the farmers case it is not!

In the context of your original point of enquiry, my interpretation of MSER is;- As long as the other container is used for storage of inert materials, and does not contain inflammable substances in quantity (say the farmer wanted to process chip shop oil/diesel for his tractor), then it would be difficult for the local trading standards officer to object to another container sited next to your firework container.

Although it would be interesting to hear the trading standards officers comments if was used to store a large quantity of nails/nuts/bolts/screws as say a wholesale storage area for a sideline business?

In my opinion the current MSER is unclear on some fronts, and therefore is open to trading standard inspectorates interpretation/opinion, and therefore licensing issues can sometimes differ from region to region.

This post has been edited by crystal palace fireworks: 08 January 2010 - 07:05 AM