22 replies to this topic

[CCH Concepts]

picric acid was discussed in another thread but we went off the main topic. it was mentioned it had legitimate uses in some firework formula. i have to liters of aquas picric acid but after reading some of its HE properties i have just left it in its aquas (safe) state in a cupboard and forgot about it.

I'm now wondering if it could be reacted into a metal salt or dehydrated into picric acid.

main question is what practical use does it have in fireworks and is there any way of eliminating any HE properties.

just to make things clear i have no interest in any HE applications for it.

[Potassium chlorate]

"Make a saturated KaOH solution. Slowly pour picric acid into it while stirring, until pH=7. Filter out the crystals and let them dry."

Potassium picrate and potassium nitrate 63:37 makes a powerful whistle mix.

[CCH Concepts]

cool. whats its sensitiviy, can i still press it into a tube. also could it be used to make a benzolift?

[CCH Concepts]

did you mean KOH because i cant seems to find KaOH. so i assume you mean potassium hydroxide?

[Potassium chlorate]

did you mean KOH because i cant seems to find KaOH. so i assume you mean potassium hydroxide?

Yes, I mean KOH. Potassium hydroxide.

[a_bab]

The maximum amount of k picrate you should expect from your 2 liters of picric acid water solution would be like 40 grams which is not bad.. If your solution is saturated, that is (14 grams/l).

[CCH Concepts]

they sell KOH on ebay, should i get it in solution or powder.

also once i have synthesized it what precautions should i take when handling's it.

also are there any other useful salts?

[Potassium chlorate]

they sell KOH on ebay, should i get it in solution or powder.

also once i have synthesized it what precautions should i take when handling's it.

also are there any other useful salts?

Sodium hydroxide. But the potassium hydroxide is the most useful

[CCH Concepts]

reading on wikipedia (i know it lies)

potassium picrate

from this it mentions adding metal carbonates to produce the salt.

does this mean we could use copper, strontium or barium carbonate

basically I'm asking if these could produce colors.

[Arthur Brown]

Picric acid is a old fashioned HE material used for shell filling in the first half of the 20th century. It's salts can vary from stable to primer style sensitivity VERY sensitive according to the cation present. It would be wise NOT to play with it as it would be too easy to form a compound too sensitive to handle safely.

There really is little reason to make fireworks using HE.

[CCH Concepts]

As interesting as it would be, if there is no way of using it with out it being a HE i would be trying it for one very good reason, men in uniform knocking at my door. If the worst they find is bp, star mixes and fp. Im probably ok, they find any form of HE im pretty much screwed. Im sure many will agree. Shame though sounded impressive.

[seymour]

As interesting as it would be, if there is no way of using it with out it being a HE i would be trying it for one very good reason, men in uniform knocking at my door. If the worst they find is bp, star mixes and fp. Im probably ok, they find any form of HE im pretty much screwed. Im sure many will agree. Shame though sounded impressive.

You should be ok with Potassium picrate. While it is not the least sensitive firework chemical, the main reasons that it's no longer used, is that (other than the cheaper modern alternatives), it is a bright yellow staining chemical (which explains it's occasional use as a dye), and tastes bitter.

When working with it it is important to note what Arthur Brown pointed out, that depending on Cation, it can be fairly safe (like K picrate), or a primary high explosive!

Of principal concern is the accidental creation of lead picrate, which is why all lead should be avoided in the picrate handling area. Other Cations can also make overly sensitive salts too, so sticking to wooden tools could be a safe option, unless you have thoroughly researched which cations do what. While I will not go QUITE as far as Arthur Brown and say not to ever do it, but be aware that it is one of the most sensitive compositions. Don't do it until you are competent and experienced.

Avoiding potential high explosives is not very realistic in our hobby. Nitrocellulose, Potassium chlorate, and a number of others can detonate when initiated properly. So long as you have no primary explosives, it should be clear that it is for pyrotechnic purposes only.

Having said all this, for the same reasons that commercial firework manufacturers have phased picrates out, you probably will too, after experimenting a bit.

Edited by seymour, 01 November 2009 - 02:28 AM.

[CCH Concepts]

on the link i posted it mentions "as a component of explosives (with potassium nitrate and charcoal) " and as already mentioned it make a whistle mix. if it possible to make a more powerful version of benzolift?

also any thoughts of my question of other salts from other metal carbonates such as copper, barium and strontium?

[Potassium chlorate]

I haven't tested picrates, but I guess they're too powerful for benzolift.

I think heavy metal salts of picric acid is even more unstable than the potassium salt.

[seymour]

I think heavy metal salts of picric acid is even more unstable than the potassium salt.

Correct, far far more sensitive. Sensitive enough that they have NO use in fireworks. Indeed, if accidentally made (by the contact between a heavy metal and the acid) quite gentle handling may be enough to make it detonate.

Potassium picrate whistles would detonate if they were not made correctly As far as I am aware they do this quite a bit more easily then Benzoate or Salicylate whistles. Since these modern whistle fuels make benzolift that is prone to become "benzo-blow up your mortar mix", It is not wise to use picrates in any lift composition.

I believe that picrates have some value for educated experimentation for historic or educational reasons (curiosity?), but certainly we do not need to try and bring them back in to the main stream of pyrotechnics, let alone experiment with different salts of the acid, or different uses for the Potassium (or other) salt.