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small amount of fire needed!


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#1 magician

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Posted 22 February 2011 - 12:48 AM

Hello

I am a magician trying to create an effect that needs a small amount of fire, and I would appreciate some help. I am not a pyrotechnic enthusiast although I suppose I might become one. And because I know that all newcomers to a forum like this must be a bit suspect, I should say that I am not a reckless youth but a man of mature years with reasonable practical skills and experience.

Anyway, to business. The effect I am trying to create is a self-lighting candle. The candle goes unlit into a “spirit cabinet”, the doors of the cabinet are closed; and when they are opened again, the candle is seen to have been lit by the spirit. The cabinet is examinable – although the candle is not.

The ignition would be done by remote control, and that much – the electronics and relays – I can do. My difficulty is getting the candle to light from batteries. My first plan was to wrap a thin strand of copper wire round the head of a non-safety match. A battery goes across the wire, which heats up and ignites the match, which lights the candle.

I know that people in the US have managed this but as far as I can tell, British non-safety matches are significantly less reactive than American ones. With six AA batteries (9V), I can just about get the match to light, but it needs fresh batteries, and the connecting wire (and battery pack) gets very hot. In other words, a lot of current is needed. I have not experimented with nichrome wire but I suspect the same will apply – though I could be wrong.

I have tried using flash wool and flash paper – they ignite much more easily but they do not light the match. I have thought about using lighter fuel but don’t really want to mess with liquids.

I feel sure that there is some chemical – magnesium powder? - which I could apply to the wick of the candle which could then be ignited by the wire. Something that is itself fairly easily ignited but which would then burn for long enough to light the wick. I don’t want to create sparks or an explosion, just a flame that lasts a few seconds. But what?

#2 crystal palace fireworks

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Posted 22 February 2011 - 04:34 AM

Interesting challenge,

Does the flame of the candle have to extinguish by itself after a few seconds in view of the public?

Candle wicks can take time to light if the candle wax has already coated the wick from a previously lit candle that has solidified & gone cold, or a candle wick that has never been lit before (no wax on it).

This is going to take some time to experiment & perfect, personally I ve never tried this myself, but I would be tempted to use something like a `Bright Spark` ignitor control system used for lighting back garden fireworks as the remote (you might be able to configure the remote button into a key ring).

Nichrome wire extended to a firework ignitor could be encased in & around a fresh wick or tightly wrapped tissue paper both dyed black (perhaps meal powder) to resemble a previous lit candle wick, the wick or tissue is then is dipped in parafin to help give instant ignition, most of witch is hidden/encased in the hollowed out candle body.

Instead of magnesium, you could try ground up fine steel wool!

The chemist guys on here will probably give you better suggestions.

Good luck

P.S Yes the americans sell it for about 250$ - http://themagicwareh...ing-Candle.html

#3 cooperman435

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Posted 22 February 2011 - 08:23 AM

I'm pretty sure that with an hour of work you could get this working reliably with nichrome wire.

Experimenting with differing lengths of say 44 or 40 swg wire would easilly be able to achieve a white hot glow for a sustained time to ignite the wick of a candle.

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#4 phildunford

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Posted 22 February 2011 - 09:23 AM

If you can hide it, a standard 'ematch' would light a candle & would fire from a small 9V battery.
Teaching moft plainly, and withall moft exactly, the composing of all manner of fire-works for tryumph and recreation (John Bate 1635)
Posted Imagethegreenman

#5 magician

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Posted 22 February 2011 - 09:36 AM

Thanks for your suggestions so far; please keep them coming. To answer the points:
No, the flame doesn't have to extinguish itself although that would be a nice extra touch I hadn't thought of.
I've tried the igniters used by the model rocket fraternity (Estes): they give too brief a burst, although the chemical with which they are coated seems the right stuff, if I had more of it.
Steel wool again is fine for igniting flash paper and flash wool (and I use this in another effect involving a vanishing rabbit!) but won't light the match or the candle.

I'll look into Bright Spark ignitors.

I've seen the American commercial version but I have no idea how it works and the challenge of making my own is more interesting.

What would a "standard ematch" be? I can hide quite a lot in the works (only the top of the "candle" will be genuine, the rest is just a disguised plastic tube).




#6 Mortartube

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Posted 22 February 2011 - 09:58 AM

How long is it between the candle lighting and the cabinet being opened to reveal the trick? If you carve a small depression in the wax at the top of the candle, you may be able to put a VERY Small amount of alcohol into the depression and get this to light first using the Estes igniter (which is an e-match). Hopefully this will light the wick and burn off before the cabinet is opened.
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#7 phildunford

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Posted 22 February 2011 - 10:17 AM

Sorry - a 'standard' ematch is the type of thing used to set off timed displays.

The Estes matches are pretty much the same thing, but made small to fit into a rocket nozzle. They seem to have a thicker wire too (which needs a higher current) and in my experience are very delicate. They have less pyrogen than a 'standard' ematch.

The type of match I'm talking about is made from a tiny piece of double sided pcb, bridged by a very thin wire - maybe 44swg. This is covered in layers of pyrogen and protective varnish. The end result resembles the head of a safety match.

You can make these (the pcb 'chips' are available from the states) but the pyrogen mix is pretty sensitive stuff & probably not the best if it's your first attempt at pyrotechnic mixtures.

They are easily available to pros, but you might find a bit of trouble getting them without the appropriate bona fides.

Magician - check your inbox...

Edited by phildunford, 22 February 2011 - 10:52 AM.

Teaching moft plainly, and withall moft exactly, the composing of all manner of fire-works for tryumph and recreation (John Bate 1635)
Posted Imagethegreenman

#8 magician

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Posted 22 February 2011 - 11:10 AM

How long is it between the candle lighting and the cabinet being opened to reveal the trick? If you carve a small depression in the wax at the top of the candle, you may be able to put a VERY Small amount of alcohol into the depression and get this to light first using the Estes igniter (which is an e-match). Hopefully this will light the wick and burn off before the cabinet is opened.




It doesn't have to be instantaneous. It needs a bit of a build-up anyway. The problem with alcohol has been that it soaks into the candle but of course I could implant I a small receptacle of some sort to hold the liquid. One reason I’ve been wary of liquids is that they are not easily transported, can spill, and anything volatile could potentially evaporate before the trick starts; after all this effect could well be in the middle of a longish act.





#9 magician

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Posted 22 February 2011 - 01:05 PM

Hmm, reading up on the dark arts of pyrotechnic chemistry, it looks as though potassium perchlorate and icing sugar ignite easily. Would a very small quantity of such mixture (like a match head) bound together with something (PVA glue) do the trick, combined with nichrome wire?

#10 phildunford

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Posted 22 February 2011 - 01:34 PM

Hmm, reading up on the dark arts of pyrotechnic chemistry, it looks as though potassium perchlorate and icing sugar ignite easily. Would a very small quantity of such mixture (like a match head) bound together with something (PVA glue) do the trick, combined with nichrome wire?

Not a good mix, hygroscopic & not all that sensitive.

The formula you need, depends to a great extent on the thickness of the wire. Thin wires (which pop with low current) only provide a very small burst of energy so you need a very sensitive pyrogen. The one generally used by "diyer's" consists of antimony trisulphide and potassium chlorate (both separately ground very finely - 300 + mesh) bound with nitrocellulose lacquer. A tiny bit of this is placed on the wire & a second layer of a black powder type composition is placed on top.

The first mix is VERY friction sensitive.
Teaching moft plainly, and withall moft exactly, the composing of all manner of fire-works for tryumph and recreation (John Bate 1635)
Posted Imagethegreenman

#11 crystal palace fireworks

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Posted 22 February 2011 - 01:53 PM

Hmm, reading up on the dark arts of pyrotechnic chemistry, it looks as though potassium perchlorate and icing sugar ignite easily. Would a very small quantity of such mixture (like a match head) bound together with something (PVA glue) do the trick, combined with nichrome wire?


Instead of using water based PVA glue, I have seen a alcohol based bonding spray glue somewhere = better/quicker chance of ignition.

Keep us informed when you have success, but stay safe as we would be intrigued on how you perfected it!

I think that $250 candle trick is based on a remote piezo lighter hidden in the false wax looking candle body, although I can`t be sure.

#12 magician

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Posted 22 February 2011 - 01:58 PM

A piezo ignition system would be great but it requires physical force and I don't see how that could be done remotely except via some kind of solenoid. I guess a solenoid might do the trick.
Yes PVA was a rather stupid thought. There are plenty on non-water based binding agents around.

Edited by magician, 22 February 2011 - 02:14 PM.


#13 Creepin_pyro

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Posted 22 February 2011 - 02:19 PM

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Edited by Creepin_pyro, 08 October 2011 - 10:11 PM.


#14 magician

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Posted 22 February 2011 - 02:23 PM

Just thinking out loud, but it might be possible to get some flash paper/cord to ignite a wick... then you could use a glo-plug / nichrome without bothering with e-matches or pyrogen.

How about using one of the magic candles with misch metal embedded in the wick - might take fire more easily from flash paper?

I figure if you can light a candle from a flint striker it should be possible to get it lit from some flash paper?

Mabye fraying the wick and coating in parrafin wax?

Dipping the frayed wick in some nitrocellulose lacqeur?



I've tried flash paper and flash wool. They flash fast but give off very little energy (reassuring in other contexts) and seem pretty rubbish at igniting anything.
Magic candles are a route worth investigating though.

#15 Creepin_pyro

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Posted 22 February 2011 - 03:12 PM

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Edited by Creepin_pyro, 08 October 2011 - 10:10 PM.





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