13 replies to this topic

[blob737]

Hi, i am looking to start making small scale fireworks, but i am located in the uk.

By small scale fireworks i am talking like small mortars, and roman candles, things like that.

Anyway, i have a few questions to ask about it all first.

1. Is it legal for me to make the aforementioned fireworks, on my private property, and use them there..?
2. If not, how do i go about getting the correct licenses, for it, and what are the correct licenses?
3. I have heard of this 100 gram rule, meaning something like, i can make 100g bp, use it, then make another 100g, and so on. However, would i be allowed to store 2kg of Kno3, 1KG of sulfur, and a load of charcoal, seperately, whilst frequently making these 100g batches?

It seems to me, from looking at forums, mostly people just like to try to 'stick under the radar', But i would really be more comfortable knowing if there was a way i could do it legally. I understand with our modern culture unfortunately people interested in pyrotechnics are easily confused with those interested in completely unsafe, and illegal activities, which is why i really want to seperate myself from that 'culture' by going about it the 'proper' way.

Thanks,

Sam

[Maxim]

Heya Sam! Im not an expert on this matter but have had enough experience to share at least some of my knowledge on this subject, im pretty sure someone else will also add to the information and/or correct any of my mistakes if i make any.

1. Is it legal for me to make the aforementioned fireworks, on my private property, and use them there..?
At the moment, there is a member on the forum who is actually leading a long term discussion with authorities about possible licensing and leeway when it comes to making compositions. If any progress is made, it will only concern pyrotechnics and not HE but at this present moment, it has actually been considered to remove the 100g rule altogether. Also at this present moment, the authorities are most definitely most concerned about real threats and by real threats i mean people who attempt to order half a tonne of oxidiser and aluminium etc. Please also keep in mind that this forum is almost certainly monitored from time to time and therefore admins and mods make a real effort to remove anything regarding blatant illegal activity.

2. If not, how do i go about getting the correct licenses, for it, and what are the correct licenses?
Right now, there are no manufacturing licenses available. The only licenses you can have are those for storing certain types of explosives and ammunition. From what i heard, people who are into the high powered rocketry modelling can store a limited amount of fuel under a license.

3. I have heard of this 100 gram rule, meaning something like, i can make 100g bp, use it, then make another 100g, and so on. However, would i be allowed to store 2kg of Kno3, 1KG of sulfur, and a load of charcoal, seperately, whilst frequently making these 100g batches?
The 100g rule is quite ambiguous so im going to let someone who knows more about it to carry on from my entrée. You can store any chemicals you like (apart from HE) as they are just chemicals. Compositions are another thing though...

[whoof]

2. If not, how do i go about getting the correct licenses, for it, and what are the correct licenses?
Right now, there are no manufacturing licenses available. The only licenses you can have are those for storing certain types of explosives and ammunition. From what i heard, people who are into the high powered rocketry modelling can store a limited amount of fuel under a license.

For rocketry it is possible to aquire and use propellant (within certain limits) without a licence although a recipient competent authority form is required from the HSE to transport it and in for all suppliers i know to purchace it.
Storing it however requires a coer3 storage licence, these are not particularly hard to aquire unless you have a criminal record.

Aquiring and using BP and storing it would require both an aquire and use certificate and for your purposes a storage licence.
It would not however be permissible to manufacture fireworks from it.
That would require a manufacturing licence.
It is possible to get one of these and a member of this forum has recently done this.
It is however very difficult and expensive to meet the requirments for this.

3. I have heard of this 100 gram rule, meaning something like, i can make 100g bp, use it, then make another 100g, and so on. However, would i be allowed to store 2kg of Kno3, 1KG of sulfur, and a load of charcoal, seperately, whilst frequently making these 100g batches?
The 100g rule is quite ambiguous so im going to let someone who knows more about it to carry on from my entrée. You can store any chemicals you like (apart from HE) as they are just chemicals. Compositions are another thing though...

There is currently an Explosives Legislative Review taking place with one of our members on a working party to try and get some clarification to the law.

If you join the members section you could read the updates.

There is someone here who is very well versed in the regs, and he may chose to reply but if you search the forums diligently you will find considerable discussion on the subject.

[exat808]

There is someone here who is very well versed in the regs, and he may chose to reply but if you search the forums diligently you will find considerable discussion on the subject.
[/quote]


"He's" just back from working in foreign parts. Once I've unpacked, and got myself sorted I will respond to the query. probably Sunday.

[exat808]

Sam,
Lots to answer in this post but here goes -
Hi, i am looking to start making small scale fireworks, but i am located in the uk.
Fireworks , when it comes to manufacture are only those articles given the UN numbers 0333 to 0337 when packed and submitted for clasification. Anything you make will just be a pyrotechnic article

By small scale fireworks i am talking like small mortars, and roman candles, things like that.

Anyway, i have a few questions to ask about it all first.

1. Is it legal for me to make the aforementioned fireworks, on my private property, and use them there..?
Manufacture can take place anywhere. The status of the property has no effect. The current regulations (MSER 2005) make the basic statement that all manufacture of explosives must be licensed but there are a number of exemptions of which the most quoted is the one relating to the manufacture of a max of 100gr of explosives for laboratory analysis, experimentation etc. This does not give you a free hand to make unlimited quantities each of 100gr. HSE will take a view that experimentation should reflect the development of an article or substance and therefore each 100gr should possibly vary from the previous. Also there is no provision for storage. The view is that you make the 100gr sample, test it, analyse it etc and then make the next sample.
2. If not, how do i go about getting the correct licenses, for it, and what are the correct licenses?
If you wish to manufacture explosives that are not specified in the current exemptions in Reg 9(2) of MSER then you need to obtain a manufacturing license from the HSE. Current cost is in excess of £650 for the application plus approx £150 per hour for the inspectors site visits.
3. I have heard of this 100 gram rule, meaning something like, i can make 100g bp, use it, then make another 100g, and so on. However, would i be allowed to store 2kg of Kno3, 1KG of sulfur, and a load of charcoal, seperately, whilst frequently making these 100g batches?
If you are contemplating making BP then consider your obligation under other legislation to have the appropriate certificate in place ( COER 1991) for its acquisition. The 100gr exemption specifically states it is an exemption from a manufacturing licence only - not from any other legislation. Storage of chemicals is not subject of MSER 2005 - however you may fall foul of Reg4 of MSER if you store chemicals and explosives together without taking steps to mitigate fire and explosion and protect other persons

It seems to me, from looking at forums, mostly people just like to try to 'stick under the radar', But i would really be more comfortable knowing if there was a way i could do it legally. I understand with our modern culture unfortunately people interested in pyrotechnics are easily confused with those interested in completely unsafe, and illegal activities, which is why i really want to seperate myself from that 'culture' by going about it the 'proper' way.
Your approach is commendable. UKPS forums have gone a long way to dissuade those who would seek to stay under the radar.
I have barely scratched the surface with this reply. Please search and read the other topics on this matter which have been discussed at length previously and please feel free to PM me if you want to discuss anything. UKPS staff are working with the HSE on a review of explosives legislation with a view to assisting people such as yourself to pursue a hobby within the scope of the law.

Thanks,

Sam

Edited by exat808, 30 April 2011 - 10:15 PM.

[dr thrust]

"HSE will take a view that experimentation should reflect the development of an article or substance and therefore each 100gr should possibly vary from the previous. Also there is no provision for storage. The view is that you make the 100gr sample, test it, analyse it etc and then make the next sample".
ahh this came up at the agm, tricky one this.. surly extensive testing may invovle going over the 100g,?
isnt repeatably the key to success with experimentation?

[exat808]

"HSE will take a view that experimentation should reflect the development of an article or substance and therefore each 100gr should possibly vary from the previous. Also there is no provision for storage. The view is that you make the 100gr sample, test it, analyse it etc and then make the next sample".
ahh this came up at the agm, tricky one this.. surly extensive testing may invovle going over the 100g,?
isnt repeatably the key to success with experimentation?

The HSE stance is based on a limited number of dealings with people who were claiming the exemption. The legislation is only 6 years old and has no case law to suport it. Additionally there is no definition of key words and phrases within the exemption. UKPS are working to obtain more clarity on the 100gr issue. At present extensive repetetive testing and the ability to store manufactured articles must be subject to licensing.

[Richard H]

I have been meaning to reply to this thread, but I see Danny has beaten me to it I would add to all of the above, that we are trying to seek clarifications to many of the points that you raise Sam - and that the goal is not to brush issues under the carpet or go under the radar, but establish the facts and limitations of the exemptions in MSER - and hopefully make some lee-way in the process. As was discussed recently at the AGM, we are in the process of participating in the on-going Explosive Legislative Review. We are in active dialogue with the HSE during this process - and the aim is to represent the interests of our members, and make legislative bodies aware of those with an interest in small-scale experimentation and preserving the tradition of scientific demonstrations.

It is worth noting, that provided you have the space, there is nothing to stop anyone here applying for a Manufacturing Licence - well, apart from a few spare £££, the co-operation of the Local Authority, and a lot of patience and persistence.

In the meantime Sam, I would strongly encourage you to join UKPS. As a member, we can be and already are your voice with those who make the decisions that affect you.

[whoof]

He's" just back from working in foreign parts. Once I've unpacked, and got myself sorted I will respond to the query. probably Sunday.

Oops, sorry danny , that was not supposed to sound "off", bad choice of phrase.
Hope you had a good trip.

[exat808]

Oops, sorry danny , that was not supposed to sound "off", bad choice of phrase.
Hope you had a good trip.

No problems. It didnt sound "off" at all. Hope the response has pointed Sam in the right direction.

[Vic]

"If you are contemplating making BP then consider your obligation under other legislation to have the appropriate certificate in place ( COER 1991) for its acquisition"

If applying for an explosive certificate and it's not for reloading firearms or re-enactment, it would seem there is no provision in the application for experimental purposes?

[exat808]

"If you are contemplating making BP then consider your obligation under other legislation to have the appropriate certificate in place ( COER 1991) for its acquisition"

If applying for an explosive certificate and it's not for reloading firearms or re-enactment, it would seem there is no provision in the application for experimental purposes?

You may be looking at the wrong form then. Form COER 1A is for firearms/re-enactors COER1 is for all other purposes and asks what purposes the explosives will be acquired for. An answer would be along the lines of "to facilitate small scale experimental manufacture of pyrotechnic articles in accordance with MSER 2005 Regulation 9(2)(a)"

[blob737]

Hi,

Well thankyou all for your replies, it seems like nobody really knows where we stand in relation to this, so at least its not just me

i will join the UKPS then as per your reccomendation, and hopefully there will at some point be a definitive answer to this.

The other issue which i would love clarified is:

Can i store quantities of individual chemicals, unmixed?

Regards

[digger]

Can i store quantities of individual chemicals, unmixed?

Yes. Just be sensible. Store fuels and oxidisers separately. Be aware of incompatibilities, for example if you had red phosphorus never never ever take it even in an unopened container into the same building that chlorate's are used in etc etc.

Going back to a point earlier in the thread. Yes anyone can apply for a license to manufacture, but there are a couple of big buts.

The legislation is prescriptive so satisfying it is very straight forward, if you follow the regs to the letter then the HSE should not object (given that you are not an Axe murderer). However the big but is planning permission, if it is on farmland then this is change of use to industrial so not likely to happen and the second problem is that planners do not have a set of rules to follow so they can deny it because they don't like the sound of it. The best bet is if you have ex MOD land or an old quarry as there will be explosives history on the sites so planning should not be so much of an issue. So basically the £1000 - £1500 for the HSE bit is the tip of the iceberg with respect to cost.

As others have said watch this space for clarification of the Law in due course.