65 replies to this topic

[Spyrotechnics]

ahem, apologies, it's all good now

[Karl Mitchell-Shead]

Further to the above post masterchief,do you not think that to commence fireing a dangerous sequence to a show,(masclelata)without checking that the site was clear,and when realising that people were inside the cage to continue with the fireing rather than call a immediate stop could be construed as a blase and cavalier attitude?

In response to this, many points to be made clear......

1.do you not think that to commence fireing a dangerous sequence to a show,(masclelata)without checking that the site was clear

All organising staff had radio's that day, prior to firing the mascleta a call was put out to ensure the field was clear, PDC however chose to communicate on a second set of radios (or another frequency), to my and the marshalls knowledge the field was clear fo firing. Nobody should have entered the field in the first place.

2.and when realising that people were inside the cage

Nobody was inside the cage, Paul and Phil were in the adjacent field checking a set of 6" racks which had suffered a failure during his show, he should not have proceeded to do this without my (as organisor) knowledge (or WITHOUT PPE). If it were so importnat to check then he should have ceased his show immediately after the incident and checked those racks / disabled them before continuing to fire from that position (this is where the blase and cavalier attitude comes into play NOT on my part) the fact these racks were set up in another field out of sight is another matter.

3. to continue with the firing rather than call a immediate stop could be construed as a blase and cavalier attitude?

I paused the firing system, the current sequence had already been initiated and as such had to finish firing, it is impossible to stop a device or chain once it has been lit, fireworks 101. I continued to fire when I had the all clear, this was evident in the video.

You are clearly in no way in light of the facts and as such have no right to comment, I am glad I have had the opportunity to clear this up.

NOW let me turn the tables, do you think it is acceptable to run into a firing site at the UKPS AGM after a firing system failure and begin to hand fire the remainder of the display WITHOUT PPE straight from quickmatch (including titanium salutes and 125mm - 175mm shells)? Again a negligant attitude from the same two people as above. Yes I fired too but in full PPE as you should be dressed even when firing electronically. That my friend is a blase and cavalier attitude. Needless to say I was pretty stunned.

Anyway....

I thought my posts were pretty sensible, sorry for my input.

If you cannot accept somebody can actually learn from their experiences, take a new stance and advise on that basis with a bit of credibility then UKPS isnt the place for me. I'll focus my attention on area's of the industry that value my experience.

See some of you around

Edited by Masterchief, 22 September 2011 - 12:14 PM.

[cooperman435]

Im really sorry to do this but as I tried to keep the posts earlier NON personal as appropriate but professional for my position as a Moderator I think this last post is a bit excessive:

In response to this, many points to be made clear......

1.do you not think that to commence firing a dangerous sequence to a show,(masclelata)without checking that the site was clear

All organising staff had radio's that day, prior to firing the mascleta a call was put out to ensure the field was clear, PDC however chose to communicate on a second set of radios (or another frequency), to my and the marshals knowledge the field was clear for firing. Nobody should have entered the field in the first place.

I agree a separate set of radios was being used by Paul's crew, they did however have a site radio, I'm unaware Paul had this to hand during the safety check so simply cannot comment on this, BUT as this was known would a response from the people in question not constitute a safety check properly done rather than radio silence?

Aside from this we had made our entry into the field well known to all and it was common knowledge at the time that we were there, we were also perfectly visible from the firing area as we were lit up in high viz jackets.

I will add (more damning of the attitudes on the day, in my opinion) that comments made by one or more of the firing crew once the error was discovered to Pauls Partner, mine and a number of other people nearby do not show that it was done unknowingly nor seen as a big mistake by them!

NUMEROUS people came to us immediately after saying they made our presence in the field known to the people firing when it commenced and alarmingly reports were made that the comment "this will surprise them" were said prior to firing?

2.and when realising that people were inside the cage

Nobody was inside the cage, Paul and Phill were in the adjacent field checking a set of 6" racks which had suffered a failure during his show, he should not have proceeded to do this without my (as organiser) knowledge (or WITHOUT PPE). If it were so important to check then he should have ceased his show immediately after the incident and checked those racks / disabled them before continuing to fire from that position (this is where the blase and cavalier attitude comes into play NOT on my part) the fact these racks were set up in another field out of sight is another matter.

we weren't in the cage no, not even next to it (we weren't in the next field though) but we were easily close enough that if the initial shot of a LARGE salute shell had gone CATO we would have been in a great deal of danger. had a salute of that size gone wrong from the distance we were injury of some sort would have been in my opinion certain.

We did tell you and the crew at the firing desk we were going for a safety / fire check and you were stood there as were they when we walked out from the desk into the field. There was NO confusion.

We were wearing full PPE, with head protection, also High Vis jackets, torches and head torches.

A fire check is standard procedure after the display to prevent a smouldering cake setting fire to a number of items and damaging the site and any equipment.

The shells in the right field were left to fire as this was suspected at the time to be a low break which later turned out to be a cato and tube damage. hence the continuation of firing that site. This was not the reason for the site check, as I have experienced with many other similar multi display events that a check is done after every display has fired. Its safety first after all?

As organiser did you make clear at any point during the set-up you had any issue with the placement of those racks? If it is SOLELY your responsibility to ensure safety at YOUR event than surely speaking of the issue before firing time would have been sensible?

3. to continue with the firing rather than call a immediate stop could be construed as a blase and cavalier attitude?

I paused the firing system, the current sequence had already been initiated and as such had to finish firing, it is impossible to stop a device or chain once it has been lit, fireworks 101. I continued to fire when I had the all clear, this was evident in the video.

You are clearly in no way in light of the facts and as such have no right to comment, I am glad I have had the opportunity to clear this up.

Some would say that not KNOWING and ensuring 100% a firing site was clear prior to that display was blase? I would NEVER be happy to fire any display (especillay one of that nature) without knowing for sure the site was clear.

To show I'm being fair we did give the all clear to fire once we had retired to a safe distance though I don't personally recall any break in the firing sequence, it may have happened though (I've not seen a video to be fair either) as I was slightly preoccupied at the time with getting clear.

NOW let me turn the tables, do you think it is acceptable to run into a firing site at the UKPS AGM after a firing system failure and begin to hand fire the remainder of the display WITHOUT PPE straight from quickmatch (including titanium salutes and 125mm - 175mm shells)? Again a negligent attitude from the same two people as above. Yes I fired too but in full PPE as you should be dressed even when firing electronically. That my friend is a blase and cavalier attitude. Needless to say I was pretty stunned.

Yes it was, I acknowledge my mistake on that day but hasten to add it was a risk I TOOK to MY safety, not one that would effect any other person and one I had the right to make. It was hasty but I still took precautions during firing and it was done in my opinion safely in the circumstances. Its not something however I intend to repeat.

I didn't fire any TI salutes by hand at the event.

Anyway....

I thought my posts were pretty sensible, sorry for my input.

If you cannot accept somebody can actually learn from their experiences, take a new stance and advise on that basis with a bit of credibility then UKPS isnt the place for me. I'll focus my attention on area's of the industry that value my experience.

See some of you around

All that said, yes I do think we can learn from our mistakes but if no one from the BIG BANG event responsible for firing the display with me in the field believes they made a mistake then you cant learn from it.

I IN NO WAY hold Karl solely responsible for what happened that night, so please do not think this post is aimed at you, its just a reply to the post about the events that night that I believe has a right for both sides of the story to be shared.

PLEASE can we start to calm down and at least understand everyone elses opinions before getting nasty?

If this thread cannot be continued in a civil way without personal comments which are not needed then I will discuss its complete removal with the other admins as its getting inappropriate.

[Spyrotechnics]

I think there is a lot to be learned from this event

[cooperman435]

A agree completely, mistakes were made by by a number of people, no one was injured and that's THE important thing. lets look at what happened in a civil (and maybe private) way and do as Karl said and learn from them. I had put the incident to bed but think its only right to make all accounts heard.

we definitely don't need to make anything personal nor start a slanging match please.