15 replies to this topic

[sasman]

hi
I have been reading thru a few of my books i got for xmas (lancaster,shimzu,perigrin,best of AFN 3,4,5+ few others)And have decided to start the practical side of pyro!.All i need is some raw chemicals..Pottery supliers seem to offer what i need at an incredable price? is it to good to be true.
Eg..
Barium carbonate ?1 kg 99%pure
copper carbonate ?4.41 Kg
strontium carbonate ?2.35 kg 99%pure
copper oxide ?2.81 kg 98.5% pure 0.3% sodium
Question is are they ok for pyro use..
i am sure the strontium & barium carbonates are ok.
Shimizu page 112 says there are two kinds of carbonate I & II. only I is used at present..is the pottery supplied one ok?
In general are the raw materials from a pottery supplier ok?
What other chemicals would you suggest that a budding pyro would need in his pyro larder .
Also i would be intrested in hearing from anyone who has used the barium and strontium carbonates to make there coresponding nitrates..

sasman

[Richard H]

The barium and strontium carbonates will be just fine. I have made strontium carbonate stars with both chlorate and perchlorate with good success.

The carbonates from the pottery supplier sound like standard technical grade, and will be fine for our needs.

[BurlHorse]

The barium and strontium carbonates will be just fine. I have made strontium carbonate stars with both chlorate and perchlorate with good success.

The carbonates from the pottery supplier sound like standard technical grade, and will be fine for our needs.

Agreed,

And Sasman, was someone ever smart and nice to you on christmas, you have all you need, except perhaps, Weingarts and experience. Take your time, the questions you asked tell me that you are on the right track to success, I am always stressing purity/no cross contamination, so if you are local to the supplier, ask to take a look see at their fired glazes, what the expected results were and what actually came to pass. This will give you a hands down indicator of the purity of their chemicals or practices I.E; scoops from chem to chem etc. Good luck, and welcome to the wonderful, wild and serious world of pyrotechnia. Be careful and be take account of your abilities, slow is good!!

Regards, Stay Green,

Bear

[BigG]

I must say that I had problem with some pottery supplier’s strontium carbonate, so make sure it's really reasonable purity (apparently, they do add materials to improve the glaze quality - but only a minority of them). As for copper carbonate - I generally did not have a good experience with pottery supply one. The barium was always fine.

[Stuart]

Which is better, Copper Oxide or Copper Carbonate?

[alany]

I prefer copper oxide myself, it doesn't slow down the composition as much as the carbonate.

[Phoenix]

I bought a kilogram of copper oxide for making chlorate stars with, but, like I said, Bill Ofca stresses that copper oxide is incompatible with chlorates and causes increased sensitivity and spontaneous igniton. However, the carbonate is fine. I'll get some of that and make up the rest of the shipping charge with some sodium silicate, and I might as well get it from the more expensive supplier I found that stocks antimony oxide.

Hmm, what to do with 1kg of CuO...

[PanMaster]

How about CuO and zinc powder?
Don't try to make tetramine copper (II) chlorate with it!!!

[zanes]

Which is better, Copper Oxide or Copper Carbonate?

why don't you buy some copper carbonate, and with a simple decomposition convert some to CuO. If the CuO is better, convert all of the CuCO3 to it. If not, stick with the CuO3.

[Stuart]

I can get both but was wondering which is better in the opinion of other members and then I would just buy that one

Stuart

[phildunford]

I'm sure Mr Ofca is a fine chap, but the Rev Lancaster seems to have no problem using Copper Oxide with Chlorate.

eg Blue Candle star page 201

Potassium Chlorate 67, Copper (II) Oxide 13, Dextrin 5, PVC 5, Redgum 10.

This is a tried and trusted formula and I don't think Ron would let us down - all I'm saying is don't get too paranoid or you won't end up making anything!

[dfk]

I just figured I would share my recent experiment experience using chemicals I picked up from a pottery supply. Not scientific by far but I figured I would share what I found.
I was pretty surprised with some of my results.
I tried Four different color comps mixing only 50 g bathes of each.

The first was a blue using copper oxide.
Conkling
Kp 65
CuO 14
parlon 9
red gum 7
dextrin 5
This comp had decent burn rate with about the same color saturation as CuC03 comps but seemed brighter. For some reason this comp burned a little erratic or not smooth. I'm going to expirement more to make sure it wasn't just my mixing.

The next one I tried was listed as pink using STRONTIUM CARBONATE that I got off of united nuclear's sight.

Kp 70
Strontium carbonate 15
charcoal 1
Red gum 10
dextrin 4

This one I liked, and was surprised with. It had nice color and was a nice almost fluorescent pink as opposed to reds I have seen using Sr nitrate comps.
*This will Make a nice valentine surprise for my girlfriend weather she likes it or not! She's kind of sick of me and my fireworks. I have a year to come up with something that looks good and hey its the thought that counts.

The yellow I tried using CRYOLITE turned out to be an orange and a better one than I have ever seen.
You do have to ask yourself why make "orange" when its such a common color.
This one is worth the effort as it is pure orange, no extra sparks or yellow/white tint.

Kc103 70
cryolite 15
Red gum 10
Charcoal 1
Dextrin 4
Watch those chlorates! I primed with a perchlorate prime.

The last one I tried is a color that is dear to me and I think my opinion is biased.
All other versions I have seen for green call for barium nitrate which is pretty much out of the picture for me due to shipping. The one place that will ship It requires a DOT-E-exemtion box with hazardous fees. Hopefully I can get some from this years PGI.
Heres the comp off of SL for
Radiant Green

Kp 40
Barium carbonate 30
aluminum 15
parlon 15

The instructions call for straight acetone to mix, but also say that an extra 5% dextrin can be added, then dampened with 25% alcohol and water.
Fine dark flake aluminum is specified as is noted the finer the AL the better the color.

I say biased because I like green and have wanted to be able to make it for some time. Its the greenest star iv ever made but I thinks others might have trouble actually calling it green.
I tried the dextrin version, the results were an all right burn rate giving a yellowish green. For some reason there was spark and a bit of slag. I was talking to Mr. horse who said this recipe is kind of sketchy and alluded to the fact that he has other versions of this that he said "might surprise me," so hopefully he can part with these copms I can try them out.

Any way, just thought I'd share but I better go. I have still yet to try the red lead I got at the pottery supply. Yesterday my order came with my Mg/Al, so I will post my result for the dragon eggs comp.

Marcus

[alany]

What's the priming scheme for the Radiant Green?

I've got a yellowish green from Blesser KP Red #1 substuting the 15 Strontium Carbonate with 20 Barium Carbonate. The metallic fuel in the Radiant Green should improve the colour.

I've never managed to get Fish's Barium Sulfate green to work properly, it takes a really high temperature to get it working. It needs -325 mesh granular MgAl. It is suggested as a low-toxicity and fairly bright green. It is ment to be OK just meal primed:

35 Barium Sulfate
30 Potassium Perchlorate
20 Parlon
10 Magnalium (-325 mesh, granular)
5 Red Gum

Solvent system: Acetone and Alcohol 1:1.

Anyway, this has drifted to something that should probably be in the star composition thread. I'll go make a batch of that Radient Green now and see if it takes fire OK from meal priming.

[dfk]

Hey Alany,

Were you able to try out that radiant green?
I didn't mention that the aluminum I used was Indian black head 2 micron flake.
So if color saturation has to do with the size of the Al as is noted in the original text, mine were as green as they were gona get. It also says the Al can be substituted for Mg/al that might better the color and of course increase brightness, if you got it I guess its worth a try.
My stars were ignited pretty easily using a modified green mix, I could elaborate if anyone is interested.

got to go, happy and careful firework making

Marcus

[alany]

I used bright Al (36 micron I believe, but I am not sure, it is called "miral 81000A").

It burns with a very bright lime green, fairly fast as a loose powder, a little slower than nitrate flash. I made cut stars, they should be dry by now, so I'll test one later tonight if the wind is OK. I gave them a dusty prime of 6:1:1 BP (my bottle rocket propellant) because I was out of meal.

I think I'll re-prime them though, I am not happy with the thickness of the prime. I figure I'll roll some more over them after I am happy the stars themselves aren't driven in. They don't smell of acetone any more, but I think I could drive more out of them if I warmed them up a bit.