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New Training Regs


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#1 Atom Fireworks

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Posted 10 November 2012 - 03:33 PM

Hi Guys

I was speaking to a member of Highlight the other month, he informed me that at some point in 2013 ( I believe june or july but do not quote me) that some new regulations come out regarding training.

He said that it will be manditory that ANYONE on a display site will need a form of " Official " training and proof of this. Now from what he said that means everyone including team members that are there purely to carry gear and help stake out.

Is it just me or does this seem a tad excessive? I think having anyone who is going to light the material or fuse should be trained but do umper lumpers really need it?

When the New Road and StreetWorks act came into force initially it was thought everyone on a roadworks site needed this qualification, however it since emerged that it is acceptable for only one of the works team to have it. Therefore if you have a gang doing a dig if the supervisor has it that is enough to pass an audit as he is responsible for that site and ensuring everything is done correct.

Could this be the case with these new regs coming into this industry? I cannot find this new legislation anywhere ( I dont really know where to look) so I cannot put it on here to quote, however if you can then please pop it on this thread. To top this off we had a council H&S officer carry out a surpise audit/inspection on a display we did, he also knew about these new regs coming into force. For the record we passed the inspection with flying colours :P

Jason

#2 exat808

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Posted 10 November 2012 - 06:02 PM

It is ill informed scare mongering.
The "new" regulations mentioned have actually been in place since 2010. They are the Pyrotechnic Articles (Safety) Regulations 2010.
Certain parts relating to the supply of Cat 4 and specific Theatrical Pyro do not commence until 4th July 2013.

The issue of supply means that a person cannot take possession of Cat 4 fireworks or the specified pyro articles unless -
1. they are over 18
and
2.they have undergone training recognised within their industry
and
3. they have liability insurance covering the use of the articles

The content of the training is mentioned in the regulations but not to any great depth.

The full regulations are here - http://www.legislati...4/contents/made

Be wary of scaremongers!!!!

#3 Mortartube

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Posted 10 November 2012 - 06:07 PM

Seems like another completely unneccessary bunch of legislation that will cost the industry financially and not materially improve safety.
Organisation is a wonderful trait in others

#4 exat808

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Posted 10 November 2012 - 06:13 PM

Seems like another completely unneccessary bunch of legislation that will cost the industry financially and not materially improve safety.

As I said, its not new - its been on the statute books since 2010 and there was a widely publicised and well participated public consultation before the regulations were made. The "industry" and public alike participated in the consultation and influenced the regulations into the form that they appear now.

#5 Atom Fireworks

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Posted 10 November 2012 - 06:48 PM

Thank you for your input Danny, so essentially this regulation means that for me to buy and aquire cat4 fireworks I need,

- To be trained by an officially recognised company and or course
- To have Insurance
- To have a storage licence

All of this I allready have!

Does this mean if one of my teams go out to do a show without me ( or a an " Officially " trained person) then we are breaching these regs because the team would be in possesion of cat4 fireworks without a training cert? They would be covered by my insurance and storage just not all my crew have done an " official " course?

If this is the case can we send out a team where the show manager/ lead firer has the training but the other crew members are trained in house? this would mean that the person in charge of the show now has the official training, insurance and storage to satisfy the regulation?

Sorry for all these question, I would just like to clear this up for myself and everyone else as it could potentially be a massive cost to the companies if everyone on the site had to have it, also it will stop many from being scare mongered.



Jason

#6 exat808

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Posted 10 November 2012 - 08:51 PM

These are consumer regulations that refer to "supply" or "placing on the market". As such a purchaser or person who has been supplied may be an individual or a corporate body. There is nothing in the legislation that requires every person within a corporate body ( eg display company) to be suitably trained - but dont read that as a cop out for not training staff. An employer still has duties under other legislation to ensure that staff are adequately trained and equipped for the tasks they perform ( The Management Of Healthand Safety at Work Regulations 1999 deal with this). So, subject to any legal decision after 4th July 2013 it should be possible for a suitably trained, insured, over 18 year old to be supplied with Cat4 fireworks or the specified types of pyro articles as a company representative and for those articles to be used by that persons company in the course of their business (subject to the requirements of any other legislation).

Edited by exat808, 10 November 2012 - 08:53 PM.


#7 Atom Fireworks

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Posted 10 November 2012 - 10:36 PM

I understand, it is a good move making some form of " Official Training " manditory for atleast the display manager/ team leader in my opinion. The good thing about these type of courses is the depth of acedemic knowledge they provide, however there is no better training than physical hands on. You cannot learn much about setting up and actually firing a show in a classroom or for an hour firing a handfull of items!

Thank you for clearing this up Danny.

#8 exat808

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Posted 11 November 2012 - 08:35 AM

I understand, it is a good move making some form of " Official Training " manditory for atleast the display manager/ team leader in my opinion. The good thing about these type of courses is the depth of acedemic knowledge they provide, however there is no better training than physical hands on. You cannot learn much about setting up and actually firing a show in a classroom or for an hour firing a handfull of items!

Thank you for clearing this up Danny.


It will be interesting to see how the industry deals with the matter.
I am concerned that some training providers will try to exploit the regulations and make a killing by "scaremongering" users into sending all staff on courses that may not be necessary.
The Government dept that is responsible for these Regulations (Business Inovation and Skills BIS) has issued guidance which states -

The concept of training recognised in the business, industry or profession does not mean that BIS will be recognising particular training. It is for the supplier to make a judgement as to whether the training in question is sufficient and provided by a person or body with a sufficient reputation in that sector.

The full guidance document is available here - http://webarchive.na...ations-guidance

I would encourage all Cat 4 and stage pyro users to familiarise themselves with the regulations and the guidance and ensure that on the relevant date that they can meet the requirements for supply.

#9 martyn

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Posted 11 November 2012 - 10:30 AM

Danny - am I remembering this correctly?
Were you at one time proposing, or at least sussing out the demand for your own version of the stage pyro course which would satisfy the requirements of the new regs with respect to stage pyro?
Any progress on this - I think I registered my interest at the time.
Cheers
Martn

#10 exat808

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Posted 11 November 2012 - 01:23 PM

Danny - am I remembering this correctly?
Were you at one time proposing, or at least sussing out the demand for your own version of the stage pyro course which would satisfy the requirements of the new regs with respect to stage pyro?
Any progress on this - I think I registered my interest at the time.
Cheers
Martn

I was and still will consider it.
At the last time it was discussed I was very quickly reminded of the presence of Mr Parkhouses courses by his loyal subjects and there seemed to be a groundswell of opinion that his were the only ones fit for purpose for the 2010 Regulations.
I dont necessarily subscribe to that view and would still consider arranging some bespoke training for those with specific needs.

#11 Mortartube

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Posted 11 November 2012 - 06:23 PM

Much depends upon who trains others in the industry. I recall working on a display with a BPA member company. Some of the things that the director insisted upon were part of the BPA training. There were very good safety reasons for NOT following their practice in some cases. In other words, just because someone has been in the industry for a while or is the member of an organistaon. It doesn't always make them the best or safest choice to train others.
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#12 exat808

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Posted 14 November 2012 - 08:32 PM

I have just copied this from the BPA website - a perfect example of exploitation of the training requirement of the 2010 Regulations -

On joining the BPA Display Companies must agree to recognize, endorse and promote the BPA Firework Firers training scheme as the only UK qualification meeting the requirement of the Pyrotechnic Articles (Safety) Regulations 2010. To provide training for their operators via the BPA Fireworks Firers training scheme and to maintain this qualification throughout their membership
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#13 spectrum

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Posted 16 November 2012 - 07:15 PM

Without referring to either of the companies/individuals mentioned in previous posts, I agree that the "need" for training is all too readily capitalised on by unscrupulous providers of training seeking to cash in. In some cases - and I refer NOT to fireworks simply because I do not know what they are supposedly offering - but particularly in the case of SFX, courses have been offered at ridiculous rates, akin to bona fide courses, by individuals without academic qualifications or industry background to justify the fees demanded.
I know of one outfit charging somewhere in the region of £300 or thereabouts for little more than an experience of sorts and a worthless piece of paper. (without wanting to contradict anyone here or endorsing his course, I have to say that Lincoln Parkhouse doesn't fall into that category, he has a very long established connection with the industry, pre-dating by decades the individuals I have in mind. That's not to say you should go on his course!, I would simply say that he at least has a very worthwhile and much respected career history)

#14 Mortartube

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Posted 17 November 2012 - 06:13 PM

I have just copied this from the BPA website - a perfect example of exploitation of the training requirement of the 2010 Regulations -

On joining the BPA Display Companies must agree to recognize, endorse and promote the BPA Firework Firers training scheme as the only UK qualification meeting the requirement of the Pyrotechnic Articles (Safety) Regulations 2010. To provide training for their operators via the BPA Fireworks Firers training scheme and to maintain this qualification throughout their membership


Ooh that sounds like a monopoly, which is illegal under UK law. :0)
Organisation is a wonderful trait in others

#15 exat808

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Posted 17 November 2012 - 06:59 PM

Ooh that sounds like a monopoly, which is illegal under UK law. :0)


So how does the end user fight back against statements like the above from BPA?
Perhaps an enquiry with the Government Department that has responsibility for the Regulations?




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