24 replies to this topic

[dannytsg]

Was over on UKFR (I know I know) and it was mentioned in a thread with regards to COER 1 forms and I made a reference to the MSER 2005 for an experimental pyrotechnician to make 100g or less of composition.

 

Someone on there came back with this response and I wanted this clarifying.

 

"Yes, MSER does permit manufacture of up to 100g of explosive for the purpose of experimentation, testing or demonstration.
However, COER prevents you from acquiring this explosive in any quantity without an acquire, and from keeping it without an acquire and keep.
If you want to experiment with sub 100g qty's of pyrotechnic compositions, you will need to get an acquire only to enable you to acquire (manufacture) them.
You will not be permitted to store (keep) them, they must be used on site there and then, bummer, but that is the law.
If you get an acquire and keep, it will list UN 0027 and UN0028 as black powder you can have. The 'authorities' will take the view that a home made composition (BP for example), is unclassified. You would however be allowed to acquire and keep commercial BP to use as a propellant for example in a star gun to test your experimental compositions you have pressed into a pellet.
ER 2014 is broadly the same, of note though is that currently flash powder is exempt from the Control of Explosives Regulations 1991, and does not require an explosives authorisation. This will change."

 

Can this be clarified as if this is the case could a lot of hobby and experimental pyrotechnicians fall foul of this?

[wayne]

There's a lot of misinformation out there, so take most of it with a pinch of salt unless it comes from a source that is involved with the ELR or ER 2014 (Ie, HSE, or a ELR  working group members to which I am the only one representing UK experimental pyrotechnics).  This will be all clarified with our guidance document which will be published before/on the 1st of October in-line with ER 2014 coming into force.  I'm just putting the finishing touches to the document this week.

 

I'm not sure what you're exact question is, but here's a quick resume:

 

• A a&q explosive certificate (was COER before ER 2014) will be required for any comps not listed on schedule 2 (BP & flash and their derivatives)
• Storage is a little grey area, but with A&Q, you will be able to store (this doesn't mean though you can stock pile 100g experimental devices).  This is meant to used to store devices until a suitable time from when an experimental device is tested.

 

PS.  Since when was the UKPS, "the dark side"?  Very much the opposite, a society that is open and transparent.  Just curious how the UKPS is viewed externally!

 

Cheers,

 

Wayne.

Edited by wayne, 10 September 2014 - 11:03 AM.

[martyn]

thread is here it has got well off topic!

The reply was in response to your post in which you implied you thought that MSER allowed you to store up to 100g of BP.

 

"...... if I want to keep any blackpowder over and above the 100g allowance within the MSER"

 

The so called '100g rule' does not permit you to acquire and keep explosives sub 100g. It permits manufacture for the purposes of blah blah. You will fall foul of COER without an explosives authorisation. ER2014 doesn't change much.

 

It's not what we want to hear but it is the law and it's clearer than it was a year ago.

 

Edit - Wayne posted while I was composing my reply. He is the authority, but I don't think my reply differs significantly from his, with the welcome exception that we are to be allowed to store experimental compositions until testing. Excellent.

Edited by martyn, 10 September 2014 - 10:10 AM.

[dannytsg]

thread is here it has got well off topic!

The reply was in response to your post in which you implied you thought that MSER allowed you to store up to 100g of BP.

 

"...... if I want to keep any blackpowder over and above the 100g allowance within the MSER"

 

The so called '100g rule' does not permit you to acquire and keep explosives sub 100g. It permits manufacture for the purposes of blah blah. You will fall foul of COER without an explosives authorisation. ER2014 doesn't change much.

 

It's not what we want to hear but it is the law and it's clearer than it was a year ago.

 

Edit - Wayne posted while I was composing my reply. He is the authority, but I don't think my reply differs significantly from his, with the welcome exception that we are to be allowed to store experimental compositions until testing. Excellent.

 

My use of the wrong terminology.

 

So under the MSER 2005 it is permitted to manufacture under 100g of composition for the benefit of testing if it is all used there an then, not stored or kept.

 

By making BP composition for testing do I then fall foul of COER as I have acquired an item that needs an explosive certificate to acquire?

 

Thanks

[wayne]

My use of the wrong terminology.

 

So under the MSER 2005 it is permitted to manufacture under 100g of composition for the benefit of testing if it is all used there an then, not stored or kept.

 

By making BP composition for testing do I then fall foul of COER as I have acquired an item that needs an explosive certificate to acquire?

 

Thanks

 

Under MSER 2005 or ER 2014, you do require COER/explosive certificate to manufacture BP in any amount...You are "acquiring" it by means on manufacture, so therefore you would require a COER certificate to manufacture even <= 100g.

[rocketpro]

Are you sure about that Wayne?

I`ve just spent 2 hours reading through ER 2014 and associated publications and as far as I can see that doesn`t seem to be the case.

 

http://www.legislati...gulation/6/made

[wayne]

Are you sure about that Wayne?

I`ve just spent 2 hours reading through ER 2014 and associated publications and as far as I can see that doesn`t seem to be the case.

 

http://www.legislati...gulation/6/made

 

Yes, see this part of the regulation which is the same in MSER 2005 (reg 9(2)(a)) and ER 2014 (reg 6(2)(a)) :

 

(2) Paragraph (1) does not apply to—

 

(a)the manufacture of explosives for the purpose of laboratory analysis, testing, demonstration or experimentation (but not for practical use or supply) where the total quantity of explosives being manufactured at any time does not exceed 100 grams, but nothing in this sub-paragraph is to be taken as authorising any acquisition or keeping of explosives for which an explosives certificate is required by virtue of regulation 5, without such a certificate;

 

 

Ironically, you could have made up to 100g of flash without an explosive certificate under MSER 2005, but not BP.  ER 2014 requires a certificate for either.

 

The regulation only provides an allowance for the manufacture of a explosive up to 100g without a manufacturing licence.  It doesn't however do away with the fact that you still need to be in possession of an explosive certificate!

Edited by wayne, 10 September 2014 - 01:14 PM.

[dannytsg]

Wayne,

 

Thank you for all the clarification. With regards to your/UKPS guidance document will this include information for the beginner in relation to all the relevant parts of legislation and legal licensing required to part take in experimental pyrotechnics?

[wayne]

Wayne,

 

Thank you for all the clarification. With regards to your/UKPS guidance document will this include information for the beginner in relation to all the relevant parts of legislation and legal licensing required to part take in experimental pyrotechnics?

 

Yes, it will cover everything required.

[rocketpro]

Yes, see this part of the regulation which is the same in MSER 2005 (reg 9(2)(a)) and ER 2014 (reg 6(2)(a)) :

 

(2) Paragraph (1) does not apply to—

 

(a)the manufacture of explosives for the purpose of laboratory analysis, testing, demonstration or experimentation (but not for practical use or supply) where the total quantity of explosives being manufactured at any time does not exceed 100 grams, but nothing in this sub-paragraph is to be taken as authorising any acquisition or keeping of explosives for which an explosives certificate is required by virtue of regulation 5, without such a certificate;

 

 

Ironically, you could have made up to 100g of flash without an explosive certificate under MSER 2005, but not BP.  ER 2014 requires a certificate for either.

 

The regulation only provides an allowance for the manufacture of a explosive up to 100g without a manufacturing licence.  It doesn't however do away with the fact that you still need to be in possession of an explosive certificate!

 

 

Wayne, Just trying to clear up any ambiguity in these regulations. They can tie you up in knots in places!   

 

The section you highlighted I believe is just a re-confirmation that apart from the 100g you will need the licence. Surely if It`s as you say they could have simply stated that any amount will require a licence.

 

As I see it I believe the "acquire and keep" section is totally separate from "manufacture and storage" you don`t acquire something by making it, surely they are referring to acquisition and keeping of an explosive as meaning  purchase and storage. This would make more sense as they are trying to accommodate amateur pyro in with other broader explosive legislation.

 

Authorisation to manufacture explosives.

 

6.  (1)  Subject to paragraph (2), no person may manufacture explosives unless that person holds a licence for that manufacture and complies with the conditions of that licence.

 

(2) Paragraph (1) does not apply to—

 

(a)the manufacture of explosives for the purpose of laboratory analysis, testing, demonstration or experimentation (but not for practical use or supply) where the 

 

total quantity of explosives being manufactured at any time does not exceed 100 grams, but nothing in this sub-paragraph is to be taken as authorising any 

 

acquisition or keeping of explosives for which an explosives certificate is required by virtue of regulation 5, without such a certificate.

 

 

 

 

Edited by rocketpro, 20 January 2015 - 08:42 AM.

[wayne]

As much as you may feel that the act of manufacture is not acquiring an explosive, I'm afraid it is!

 

I really don't see a problem anyway, an explosive certificate is free for most people...just apply for one!

[rocketpro]

As much as you may feel that the act of manufacture is not acquiring an explosive, I'm afraid it is!

 

I really don't see a problem anyway, an explosive certificate is free for most people...just apply for one!

The reason for my post was to try to clarify things for a few members, and I was hoping for a sensible exchange from you. I`m not trying to be confrontational at all, I just wanted some clarity here, I`ve presented it the way I see it and I`d like to understand the new regs just like everyone else and not just go on hearsay.

 

I didn`t say there was a problem, as you inferred, and yes I know an explosives certificate is free and if I were still involved with pyro I would "just apply for one!" but then I would want to know if that is really what`s required hence the reason I posted in the first place. 

 

And with respect the act of manufacturing is NOT an acquisition of an explosive as used in their context.

[wayne]

I am being sensible and not confrontational so please don't think otherwise.  I'm simply stating the fact that, manufacture is classed as acquisition.  This is not hearsay, I've clarified this on numerous occasions with the HSE during the whole ELR process (I've been a member of the ELR working group since day one!).  My whole guidance document details this.

 

You may have your own definition, but the people creating the regulations (the HSE) have defined that manufacture is acquisition, so really there is no debate.  We may not always agree with the regulations, but they are what they are! 

 

Again, please understand that I am trying to be helpful, I've spent 6 years trying to gain clarification on the regulations and steer them in the right direction.  All my replies are always constructive and to the best of my ability, accurate.  

Edited by wayne, 10 September 2014 - 04:38 PM.

[martyn]

I'm the worlds worst for trying to interpret the legislation to suit my needs, but in this case, the law as explained by Wayne is exactly how my ELO interpreted it.

In manufacturing an experimental composition you are acquiring it.

My ELO has given me an 'acquire only' for up to 100g of any experimental pyrotechnic composition, and an acquire and keep for BP, 0027 & 0028.

Also, If like me you also have a Trading standards registered store and you apply for an acquire and keep, the police will take over the registration for the whole site and it will cost much more than a TS registration!! I think my cost overall was about £460.

[dannytsg]

This is exactly why I posted the above to get as clear to clarification as possible. It could be a stumbling block for some who interpret thing differently than others.

I guess the easiest thing is to say that in order to even partake in experimental pyrotechnics you need a COER cert as standard for BP and as of October, Flashpowder, to enable you to manufacture any composition under 100g.

I wonder how my science lecturers got away with the old thermal runaway experiment though using homemade black powder in lab as I'm sure they didn't have an acquire or keep cert but who knows!

Edited by dannytsg, 10 September 2014 - 05:30 PM.