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#91 italteen3

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Posted 18 August 2004 - 03:58 AM

I stand corrected. If this is 8-10 pound ? then huge fits the description more then large. I heard about much smaller quantities.

Anyone making that much flash ? cannot call himself a serious pyrotechnition. It shows amazing stupidity.

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That much flash should not be made with that many people around. If I am right international laws say atmost 10 pounds with one worker in an isolated building. They were more irresponsible then I once was, and unfortunately it cost them. I was lucky to have become a bit wiser and continue to.

Any idea on what type of flash? I know regular 70/30 flash is sensitive but in tests on very small scales with friction I had no ignition or pop, flash, boom, etc. Doesnt matter now I just hope they pull through if what was mentioned on passfire is true.

#92 miniskinny

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Posted 18 August 2004 - 04:29 AM

It's a real tragedy, and hopefully doesn't give a bad name to pyrotechnitionists that don't play with flash powder like it's a pile of dirt. But we have to get beyond their stupidity, and really just hope and pray for the best for them.
When one plays with fire, one is bound to get burndt.

#93 Patrick

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Posted 18 August 2004 - 10:23 PM

Two men in stable condition after blast

Forum staff reports, The Forum
Published Wednesday, August 18, 2004

Two men injured in a fireworks explosion Friday at the Red River Valley Fairgrounds were in stable condition Tuesday in a Fargo hospital.

Mike Barnes, 45, Toledo, Ohio, and Kelly Malone, 34, Cortland, Ill., were in the critical care unit of Innovis Hospital, spokeswoman Jodi Baumgartner said.

Barnes and Malone, along with a third person, Allen Poole, 36, Toledo, were injured when a fireworks device exploded about 3:45 p.m. Friday at the fairgrounds, where the Pyrotechnics Guild International was holding a convention.

All three were taken to Innovis after the incident.

The hospital wasn?t authorized to release information about Poole, Baumgartner said.

It?s believed the men were assembling a salute, a device that creates a flash and loud noise, when it accidentally went off, the Cass County Sheriff?s Department said.

Heat generated by a shoe scraping on gravel may have been enough to ignite powder spilled on the ground, said deputy Tom Hall, commander of the Cass County Regional b**b Squad.

#94 Yugen-biki

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Posted 19 August 2004 - 02:38 PM

8 to 10 pounds! thats about 3,6 to 4,5 kilos of flash! And on top of that, spilling on the ground.
It sounds like a "lets-make-a-big-salute-really-fast-just-to-impress" impulse.

I know how it is, and I think most of the forum readers know what I mean.
You are standing there and the heat is up. The adrenaline is pumping and the thought "how cool is this!" is the only thing on your mind. Acting on impuls and "showing of" is very dangerous. Not only in pyro but also with fast cars and racer bikes etc.

Keep safe, keep cool, keep your life.

#95 The_Djinn

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Posted 19 August 2004 - 03:37 PM

This is the official report as posted on Passfire..

"Accident at PGI: 2004 Convention

From the Safety Director and Second Vice-President, Bill Bahr, With approval of the Board of Directors, Safety Co-Chairmen, and Past President:


By now many of you have learned of the unfortunate and tragic accident at the PGI convention. You may not, however, know the facts of the incident.

What follows is a brief description of the facts of the matter, the aftermath, and the reaction of the PGI.
This is
a factual and official report. Any and all other posts are merely unsubstantiated rumor. Please feel free to contact your Board should there be any remaining questions.

At approximately 3:45 PM, on Friday, August 13, 2004, an accident occurred at the convention site. Three persons were involved. Two were PGI members. One had fraudulently obtained PGI credentials by offering false information at registration.

These three individuals were mixing a flash composition, which ignited. It is estimated that they were mixing approximately ten pounds of a very sensitive type of flash powder. Two were critically injured and one was severely injured. As of August 15, 2004, all three are expected to survive and are talking and alert and conscious. Two remain hospitalized.

This accident is the direct result of gross, willful, and deliberate violations of PGI rules and policies.

Specifically, the violations were:

1) Mixing of flash powder is expressly forbidden.

2) No activity is permitted at a range that is not open
for use and supervised by the safety team.

3) The person who obtained PGI membership credentials
fraudulently committed criminal trespass.

As safety director, I am very proud of having kept all
of our members safe for many, many years. We have
NEVER had
an accident involving fireworks related injuries at a PGI convention in 35 years until this year. So far as the Board and all the signators of this open letter are concerned, the PGI STILL has a perfect safety record. I find it utterly impossible to provide a complete defense against acts committed by those who would trespass onto our site and then violate two of our most stringently enforced safety rules.

What are the repercussions for the PGI? Here is our current status:

1) Bill Bahr, John Steinberg, Tom Handel, and Michael Swisher
have met with the ATFE, North Dakota State, and local Cass
County b**b squad authorities. There were NO violations
by the PGI. Our federal license and local law enforcement
record is considered by all to remain unblemished and
intact. This is THE official response and conclusion to
this matter.

2) John Steinberg has met with our insurers: our London
underwriter, our London broker, and our insurance agents.
The PGI has offered, if it would be helpful, to underwrite
any costs in resolving this matter. There are, at present,
no claims pending against the PGI and there may well not be.
Should any claims be filed, the PGI expects to be completely
exonerated, though there may be costs incidental to
conducting a civil defense. Our insurance will be renewed
for 2005 and is not in jeopardy.

3) Our North Dakota hosts and our Iowa hosts are completely
satisfied with our conduct and our administration of our
convention. The Iowa 2005 convention will be conducted
exactly as planned, without any changes or interruptions.
Planning for this event is underway even as you read this.

In summary, the PGI did NOTHING wrong. The PGI will suffer NO adverse consequences. The three individuals who so terribly abused our hospitality and so grievously betrayed our trust have been punished by their injuries to a far greater degree than any of us would ever wish upon anyone.

For 2005, increased safety supervision of firing sites including documentation of activities and patrols by safety team members will be instituted. We intend to secure our site so that no such activity can ever occur again.

You, our law abiding and rule following members are entitled to enjoy a safe and rewarding convention. You shall.
Those who
disobey our rules and place themselves and others in harm's way will be dealt with immediately and severely. This can NEVER happen again. It is up to all of you to work with us to help maintain our overall track record of safety. There have STILL been no fireworks accident-related injuries involving the PGI members who have enjoyed our permitted and supervised activities, conducted our displays and demos, attended our seminars, and enjoyed our hospitality. Under my active direction and under Ron Nojunas' safety chairmanship, this unblemished record of safe operation WILL continue.

Our attorneys and our insurers have reviewed the above text.

This response constitutes the official response
of: the
Safety Director, Bill Bahr; our Board of Directors:
Camille Coman,
Tom Handel, Bill Bahr, Mike Swisher, and Frank Kuberry; our past president and regulatory liaison officer, John Steinberg; and our Safety Chairman, Ron Nojunas."


Very fortunate is all I can say.. this could very easily have been a case of "It only takes one person to spoil things for everyone else". It also goes to show that rules and safety procedures are there for a reason, no matter how trivial they may appear at the time.

Be sensible, keep it safe !

Mark
KF Pyro Crew
BPA L1 & L2

#96 boris_73

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Posted 14 September 2004 - 03:49 PM

Oh yeah, I have heard of your most interesting method of using a casserol oven, and I may just invest in one myself. By the way BigG, to settle our 'arguement', the US made a nuclear charge first; end of discussion  :P    or rather        B)
but I suppose they'll do more damage than good for any use at all, so I shouldn't be happy. Eh, they should stick to just making BP rockets eh? much safer, and you can watch it without wearing radioactive protection from about 10 feet away  :lol:       
-mini

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actually the americans used british scientist to make the first nuclear b**b, nor will it be the last time americans use british scientist. :P

#97 boris_73

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Posted 14 September 2004 - 03:53 PM

What!!!! I though england was our colony

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and britain colonised about 70% of the world once :P(shame it still does'nt :P )(joke)

Edited by boris_73, 14 September 2004 - 03:54 PM.


#98 Patrick

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Posted 18 September 2004 - 07:58 PM

I'll add this to the Flash topic.

I am interested in making some 3" salutes, but want to make them cost effective, safe, with decent bang. I guess I want the "best bang for my buck". I have some 3" canister shells from pyroplastics that I'll be using.

I have made a few smaller salutes with flash, but mixing 2 grams for a little cracker is a little different than filling a 3"r.

Someones had to have done some experimenting.

Any input would be great!

Thanks,

Patrick

#99 Richard H

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Posted 18 September 2004 - 08:56 PM

Please be extremely careful! The amount of flash in a 3" maroon is enough to make you have a REALLY bad day if something goes wrong. There are so many precautions you have to take when handling flash powder.

In a factory such conditions can be controlled with reasonable certainty and confidence, but not all hobbyists follow risk assessment and limitation procedures, which can give rise to tragic accidents.

I would only advise contemplating such a project after having experience with building various types of shells. There is a saying that comes to mind. "There are old pyro's and there are bold pyro's, but there are no old bold pyro's!"

Why not put maroons off, and instead perfect using flash or whistle as break charges in other fireworks? Please also be aware, that in some countries, construction or mere possession of salutes / maroons / boomers / call it what you will is a very serious offence.

Be careful.

#100 neo

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Posted 18 September 2004 - 09:10 PM

I would definitely NOT fill an entire 3" shell with flash, I have never made flash, but in the videos I have seen it seems to quite powerful!
I would recommend that you fill it with PB and 5-10 grams of flash, then just make the shell very strong, it increases the bang. I think that will do a nice bang.
maby, you can put some titanium flings, that makes a really nice effect!

Edited by neo, 18 September 2004 - 09:12 PM.

Pyrotechnics, the art of fire!

#101 italteen3

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Posted 18 September 2004 - 10:29 PM

I'll add this to the Flash topic.

I am interested in making some 3" salutes, but want to make them cost effective, safe, with decent bang.  I guess I want the "best bang for my buck".  I have some 3" canister shells from pyroplastics that I'll be using.

I have made a few smaller salutes with flash, but mixing 2 grams for a little cracker is a little different than filling a 3"r. 

Someones had to have done some experimenting. 

Any input would be great!

Thanks,

Patrick

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Patrick I used to and still want to make 3" salutes myself. You just have to fight the urge to do it and try and do everything around flash perfect it, perfect your safety procedures then try it.

The amount of Flash used in a 3" salute is ALOT. Unless you have a high explosive manufacturing license you will not be able to get more then 2 pounds of any type of dark aluminum. Using rough estimations and calculations a 3" salute will hold about 200 grams of Flash which means out of 2pounds of aluminum, about 900 grams, you will get 15 3" salutes for one whole year. Thats all of your German Dark for just 15 shells. If your not doing big huge shows but rather impressing your friends some 1 3/4" salutes with titanium are very impressive as well.

Also keep in mind the 2g salute held in hand will take of some fingers maybe whole hand while a 3" salute can sever your torso from legs.

At my last 4th of July party someone brought 10 4" salutes. I know how loud they are, and after hearing them I wanted to make some. But you have to be ready and experienced to do it safely.+

What Richard H has said is a very good way to progress.

And Richard you are a bit off on the saying :P

#102 Patrick

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Posted 19 September 2004 - 03:51 AM

I wasn't thinking of filling them completely with flash, as that would cost an arm and a leg, in more ways then one. I was thinking more along the lines of BP with a little flash mixed in, maybe a 20-1 ratio? Would the small amount of flash add or should I just stick with the BP? I just can't see putting 50 grams of flash into a salute or even a couple hundred .. that would be crazy.

If it takes a lot of flash to make a decent salute, they will be on hold, as I have no intention of making more than just a few grams of flash at a time and would rather just use BP, but I don't want to be wasting my BP either.

Patrick

#103 Greg T

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Posted 09 October 2004 - 08:24 AM

Could someone please advise on a safe composition to use as a bursting charge inside a 2 inch shell/ rocket payload.

As I'm still learning I'd rather not delve into the world of flash powder and other sensitive comps too quickly.

I noticed earlier on in this post that a 50/50 KNO3/Mg mix worked well for a bursting charge. Is this a sensitive mixture? Are there any other bursting charges that I can make that don't involve chlorates or flake aluminium as I know these are particularly dangerous to use?

#104 Pretty green flames

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Posted 09 October 2004 - 08:30 AM

Yes there are "safer" than FP mixtures but under no condition safe.

here's a link that may help.

http://www.unitednuclear.com/hulls.htm

LP

#105 Jerronimo

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Posted 09 October 2004 - 05:33 PM

Could someone please advise on a safe composition to use as a bursting charge inside a 2 inch shell/ rocket payload.

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You've got very limited options here, a Bp on hulls charge will be the safest but also to weak for such a small shell.

Magnesium based flashpowders are rarely used, magnesium is very reactive and you would probably be better of using a perchlorate/benzoate wistle comp as a booster, or coated on ricehulls as the main breakcharge.
"Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both."




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