34 replies to this topic

[YT2095]

H2O2 and HCl and then simply dissolve copper in it, that works too.

ok, here are this mornings pics:

the basic ingredients in soln: http://myweb.tiscali...095/cubenz1.jpg

this is the mixing of the Am benz and CuSO4 soln, sorry it`s a bit blurry I was swirling the mix a sec before it, you`ll notice the CuSO4 soln is going in through a filter, that`s to ensure it`s drop at a time: http://myweb.tiscali...5/cubenzmix.jpg

this when it`s all mixed: http://myweb.tiscali.../cubenzmade.jpg

now water is added and it`s allowed to Split for decanting: http://myweb.tiscali...cubenzsplit.jpg
yes I made to lots, you can see the second flask also split there.

now I`m not going to show you how to filter it as that would be insulting, but here`s an idea of the finished product (some I had already made) : http://myweb.tiscali.../cubenzdone.jpg

I realise these pics aren`t great, but they should give anyone a rough idea of what to look for when making it, and hopefully shatter the Mystery behind the elusive New Blue, it really couldn`t be any more easy than shown

Edited by YT2095, 22 July 2007 - 01:05 PM.

[YT2095]

skylighter say it's meant to be

B16

Ammonium perchlorate) 82

Copper benzoate 18

Dextrin +5



D. Bleser's blue from AFN #64, Jan. 1987 modified with dextrin binder. Good ignition. A simple, but effective, composition employing a single entity fuel/color donor. Color saturation was very good, as was burn rate. One of only three useable ammonium perchlorate compositions tested, its primary disadvantage may be the limited availability of copper(II) benzoate.



seems to meet all my requirements, anyone got a video of it?

I was fortunate enough to obtain a quantity of Am perc, and I can fully attest that it does indeed make a fantastic easy to make Blue, I lit mine in powder form without the dextrin, simply on the bench tripod in an open shallow crucible.
I did several mix ratio variations and tested each, it`s Very flexible! and although I only mad 200mg batches per test, the blue is Great!
although I would imagine it would need some Really strong pressing to slow the burn rate down enough to get a descent effect as a star as the rate is comparable to that of Good BP.

I don`t have the facilities/tools to press stars here, at best I could hand form a couple, but I`m a little reluctant to do that in light of recent events, I don`t how the Law stands with making a star to test?


on a similar note to the Copper Benz, Strontium And Barium also work equaly well in such mixtures, I tested those in the same way this morning too.

ENJOY!

Edited by YT2095, 30 July 2007 - 02:14 PM.

[dr thrust]

I`m currently making another batch of copper benzoate, I use a strong but not saturated soln of copper sulphate and Ammonium benzoate.
add the one to the other slowly while mixing well.
the PPT is instant as a light turquoise blue, allow the ppt to settle and decant it off, add water and shake well and allow to settle again and decant, same again and then filter off the liquid to leave your Copper benz, I`ve done it dozens of times and with perfect results each time, the stuff really isn`t all that soluble at all.
I`ll add some pics (or link to them) when I`ve done this batch and post them in here.

whats "ppt"?

[MMMMMM Pyro]

whats "ppt"?

Precipitate.

[dr thrust]

yes i have sh*t for brains

[MMMMMM Pyro]

yes i have sh*t for brains

No... I wouldn't say that! It could have been parts per trillion aswell...

Mike

[YT2095]

it`s partly my fault, I tend to use chem shorthand without even thinking, but on a Brighter note, I have requested a Glossary thread where we (across science disciplines) can add such things as this and hopefully end up with a nice resource too

stuff like: EtOH (chem) Ethanol, Ethyl alcohol. >See: Beer (esp Pizza Accompaniments)

[digger]

Now then chaps, I would like to quiz you on this topic of copper benzoate production. I would also like to try this "new blue", I have benzoic acid and various copper salts. However I would like to use copper carbonate for the reaction.


2xC6H5COOH + CuCO3 -----> Cu(C6H5CO2)2 + CO2 +H2O

My questions are would benzoic acid/copper carbonate be a good combination for this reaction? How would you go about this reaction as both benzoic acid and copper carbonate are only slightly soluble in water (correct quants boiled?), would it be possible to carry this reaction out using ethanol as a solvent? or would this create a different undesirable compound?

[Sambo]

If you use alcohol as a solvent, it will react with the benzoic acid forming an ester.

[YT2095]

If you use alcohol as a solvent, it will react with the benzoic acid forming an ester.

in order to do that, it would have to join in the space occupied by the copper ion, so if it did form and ester you would lose the Copper ion.
Not something you want when you`r after a Blue color

[Mumbles]

in order to do that, it would have to join in the space occupied by the copper ion, so if it did form and ester you would lose the Copper ion.
Not something you want when you`r after a Blue color

Not neccesarily. Given that copper carbonate is not really soluble in alcohol to any degree, you'd form the ester just fine, it'd just be sitting on top of copper carbonate. To be fair, not a great deal of ester will be formed due to equilibrium. Still enough to give you wintergreen smelling copper carbonate.

What you want to do is boil the copper carbonate and benzoic acid mixture. Benzoic acid, while yes is insoluble in room temperature water, is actually notably soluble in hot water. It should be able to react then.

I didn't try to boil it, but I couldn't get the two to react at room temp. I did get benzoic acid to react with copper hydroxide though by adding a catalytic amount of sodium hydroxide. It was purely a test, not actually designed to produce any. Honestly, I think the fastest way would be to neutralize some potassium hydroxide with benzoic acid, then react that with copper sulfate.

[GalFisk]

on a similar note to the Copper Benz, Strontium And Barium also work equaly well in such mixtures, I tested those in the same way this morning too.

Interesting. How did you prepare the Ba- and Sr-benzoates?

[MDH]

in order to do that, it would have to join in the space occupied by the copper ion, so if it did form and ester you would lose the Copper ion.
Not something you want when you`r after a Blue color

I believe on a forum called "science madness" or something of the likes you also devised a number of compositions which contained barium perchlorate, strontium perchlorate, etc...

I wonder if these could somehow be used for coloured report compositions. I opened up the possiblity in another thread but I don't think there were any responses.

Either way, a composition with a little saran or parlon, Barium Perchlorate and Benzoate or copper respectively must look very beautiful and create quite a rich colour.

[pyrotrev]

Indeed alkaline earth perchlorates will make good coloured report comps. The problem is that they are STUPIDLY hygroscopic and hence very difficult to use in practice. Some of them have such an attraction for water that it's not possible to prepare the anhydrous salt by heating - it will rather decompose than give up it's water

[MDH]

That is quite true, unless you had a very well insolated environment you probably shouldn't bother... Although I must attest to the fact that I've had many very moist compositions burn perfectly, even and including whistle that had been under my back porch for a week.