19 replies to this topic

[AdmiralDonSnider]

Firstly: Hi, I am a new member and wanted to say hi to everyone! Really glad to see that there are even some of the pyro "grandfathers" involved in this.

Secondly: Does anyone still use Paris Green and/or Realgar? These two salts seem to have disappeared completely. I know about their toxicity but am not sure if one can leave them away completely. Some old-fashioned formulas (e.g. in Shimizu´s works) make use of these.... Are they really obsolete?

[Arthur Brown]

With the current state of H&S legislation there is probably too much effort required to use these due to their toxicity.

[MMMMMM Pyro]

I believe that they are nigh on obselete from industry, due to the toxicity or Arsenic.

On a hobby scale, you can, as you say find formula that do use As2S3 and C4H6As6Cu4O16 but to be utterly frank with you, in my opinion anyway, there are similarly styled formula that are for less toxic for the same purpose!

I hope that I have helped!

Best regards,

Mike

[AdmiralDonSnider]

Thanks for the help!

Which Oxidizer - color p. agent produces the best blues in your opinion? CuSO4 with NH4ClO4?

I remember I once found a commercial source for Realgar when I realized the prize: about 1000 pounds/kg. Nothing for the next weekend
I do not wanna use Paris green at all costs, but I would like to try it out and compare. I heard from some remaining sources in the US (some small artist suppliers are said to still sell it...)

[FrankRizzo]

IMO, the best blues comes from copper benzoate and ammonium perchlorate. A close second would be potassium chlorate and insoluble salts of copper like the oxide or carbonate.

[MMMMMM Pyro]

I second that opinion,

NH4ClO4 and (C6H5COO)2Cu make excellent blues!

KCLO4 blues, really do pale in comparison in my humble opinion... *pun intended*

Regards,

Mike

[dr thrust]

hi, what part did "red arsenic" play in old comps? weingarts book is full of it, red arsenic here, red arsenic there! whats a replacement?, ho found another one now "orpiment" in a lancasters comp

Edited by chris m, 25 November 2007 - 01:22 AM.

[MMMMMM Pyro]

Red Arsenic- As2S4, I'm not sure exactly what its use was tbh. And Im not sure what a great substitution would be, other than perhaps Sb2S3...

Regards,

Mike

[AdmiralDonSnider]

"hi, what part did "red arsenic" play in old comps?"

It acts as a fuel, i think and assures ease of ignition. Sometimes it is used to produce smokes.
The formula is As2S2 not As2S4. Orpiment would be As2S3.

Sounds nice that benzoate stuff

[MMMMMM Pyro]

Red Arsenic is Arsenic Disulphide As2S4
Orpiment is Arsenic Trisulphide As2S3

MSDS for both:

http://physchem.ox.a..._disulfide.html
http://ptcl.chem.ox....trisulfide.html

Mike

[dr thrust]

thanks mike! didn't realise orpiment was so hazardous! ive seen it for sale as a mineral for collecting ect, i guess it would be interesting to try the comp with and without the orpiment to see what role if any it plays? chris

[MMMMMM Pyro]

Hiya buddy,
Its not a problem! And yeah, I have had some real problems getting some lab grade stuff on account of its sheer toxicity! If I may be frank with you, I believe that its toxicity would outweigh any potential benefits with regard to its useage in pyro.

I would personally be much more inclined to use something like Sb2S3 and see how you go from there!

Regards,

Mike

[AdmiralDonSnider]

Not sure if your source is right. Why should one name As2S4 arsenic disulphide; this would be arsenic tetrasulphide or slt.
Nevertheless I heard different formulas from different sources. But naming As2S2 arsenic disulphide follows the logic of naming As2S3 arsenic trisulphide...

[MDH]

These chemicals are generally called "old fashioned" for a reason. They have been replaced by numerous other compounds, mostly because they are likely to kill you. I have recently ordered copper benzoate - which thankfully skylighter can ship and hope to make some blue rockets with the small amount of perchlorate I have.

I believe, however, you can still order paris green in small amounts from china. Try looking around international supply search engines, eventually you can find a company you can contact. Just only exhale...

Edited by MDH, 26 November 2007 - 03:47 AM.

[dr thrust]

talking of old time chems, how is vegetable black made? have i at last found a use for sprouts!, and lets not forget , good old calomel, and lead nitrate to