29 replies to this topic

[GreenGenie]

Thankyou for your helpful and detailed remarks. I really appreciate your time and knowledge.

I am not after a specific effect. What I would like in a nutshell is some simple compositions that I can mix together as a powder and put into a tube to produce fountains, waterfalls and volcanoes of different colours. I am not interested in rockets.

Ideally a basic composition that I can prepare and repeat and then add to this a fixed quantity of one of a variety of metal salts, to produce different colour fountains. Once I have explored this I would then consider two or more combinations of metal to produce a wider pallet of colours. Perhaps this is being naive and it doesn't work that way.

Your red fountain with Titanium sparks sounds very much the thing; but I am new to this and I need a recipe with the chemicals and quantities spelled out. I dont have the knowledge and experience to invent a formula or the confidence to take a formula that is listed for one purpose and to use it for something entirely different. I am happy to scrap the formula I have been using if I can replace it with something better.

When I say colours - coloured flames would be fine. I dont insist on coloured sparks.

Is it safe to ram Potassium Nitrate? or should this be pressed too?

Can a base mix based on Potassium Nitrate rather than Perchlorate be used to make colours if sensitivity is a danger.

I dont have a press.

[GreenGenie]

Zinc Powder (325#)
Aluminium Powder 250#

These are the sizes I have purchased from Cooperman. I have used most of the Aluminium and none of the Zinc. From your remarks I would say that the Aluminium is too fine. Is it safe to finish this up or is it dangerous and should I throw the remainder away and get some courser stuff.

[seymour]

That Aluminium is not going to make anything turn in to flash powder, but it might not produce very long lasting sparks in your formula. Do not throw it away though! It will work wonderfully in glittering stars and fountains, as well as silver stars.

Some mixes with Potassium nitrate are perfectly safe to ram. Some are not. Ones with metals, especially Titanium, Iron and some of the super fine Aluminium are quite dangerous to ram. I am however very comfortable ramming Potassium nitrate mixes with a fairly small quantity of medium sized atomised Aluminium such as you have, though I am not claiming this is safe, and I am sure some people would not do it. Black powder, and most other mixes containing just Potassium nitrate, Charcoal, Sulfur, most resins, and many carbonates and other 'inert' salts are perfectly safe to ram.

Other than adding Zinc to Black powder to get a milky aqua, or a Sodium containing salt to get a golden yellow, or extra sulfur to get an off white, you cannot really get colours with it. Some very old formulas exist, but they generally contain magnesium, which makes them sensitive to make and have a very poor shelf life, and compared to the colours you can get with some of the more standard modern formulas, the colour is nothing to speak of.

Now, for your "base mixes" which you add different things to get different effects, you cannot get every effect with one base mix. For colours it is not a matter of adding a few things here and there, you need to throw EVERYTHING out the window and start again. The chemistry is just so different.

It will be possible to make a base mix to make all the basic colours be adding a different "part B", but within colours the chemistry is so different! One colour might be good, but the others will be pretty crap. For example, a Blue might have about 10% of a copper salt, perhaps CuO and get a good colour, with Potassium perchlorate as a main oxidiser, and it will not have a metal fuel. A Green on the other hand might have 50% Ba(NO3)2 as both the Barium donor and the oxidiser, and also have ten to twenty per cent of Magnalium or another metal fuel, and will have little or no Potassium perchlorate.

I suggest you just get a dedicated formula for each colour, and each other effect. It will work much better.

If you want to make Red, Blue, Purple and Green colours, I suggest you get, as a minimum:
Potassium perchlorate
Barium nitrate
Parlon
Strontium carbonate
Magnalium
Copper oxide
Red Gum

Thankyou for your helpful and detailed remarks. I really appreciate your time and knowledge.

No problem.

[Creepin_pyro]

Have a look at this article for coloured gerb formulas - they're rather good. Should only be pressed or lightly hand-tamped with all the proper safety precautions.

http://paraphysics.c...sswick_gerb.jpg

[GreenGenie]

Have a look at this article for coloured gerb formulas - they're rather good. Should only be pressed or lightly hand-tamped with all the proper safety precautions.

http://paraphysics.c...sswick_gerb.jpg

Hello Creepin Pyro

Thankyou, Thankyou, Thankyou

This is exactly the sort of thing I am looking for. I feel that this is a very important topic because there are going to be many others like me who are new to this and want some simple to follow, simple to make, safe and spectacular fountain formulas producing a range of colours. I feel that this topic could be very valuable for a large number of people. Early success without too much complexity is very important when learning any new skill. People are much more likely then to move on and take on more tricky compositions and effects.

I am also grateful to the article on its advice on compressing the composition. Last night Seymour advised me that it would be best if I didnt use a ram rod to compress the powder. I have been going over this in my mind all last night and this morning and I was going to try and construct something to do this today (My ideas were to make either a lever pushing on a dowel - my first choice; or to modify a silicone gun exploiting the mechanisms incremental push on a trigger.

What are the communities views on Creepin Pyros article?

1) *** This is a very good start but I am greedy. Does anyone have a similar table of mixtures for different coloured fountains using
a) Potassium Perchlorate
Potassium Nitrate.

Organic fuels are much cheaper to buy than magnalium.

And if not would someone like to compile a table for each. I think it would be a great bonus to all us newbies.

2***) Do I need to be worried about UV radiation from Magnalium?

3***) What are the maximum safe quantities that the experts among you would advise mixing up at one time.

I have been mixing the following quantities of this

96g kno3
16g sulphur
16g charcoal
40g of desired metal powder

This has gone into making a single fountain 22mm in diameter and 340mm in length or a waterfall comprising of the same tube cut in half making two half sized tubes used together or a single volcano using approx 90% of the mixture.

I have made a shield to hold the tube during filling and compaction. It is a 'T' shaped piece of wood made from heavy planks Each dimension corresponds to the height of a particular firework (fountain tube, waterfall tube and volcano). Loops of sisal threaded through drilled holes in the timber hold the tube firmly during filling. the tube is on the other side of the 'T' away from me during the operation. The idea is if the tube should detonate during filling the blast will be deflected away from me by the 1 and three quarter inch timber. I have until now been using a rubber tipped Aluminum rod for careful compaction. . The shield is not very big; quite a manageable size.

I have also made a device to pick up the filled and compacted tube, made out of a short length of drilled heavy dowling. Plastic coated copper wire is threaded through the drilled dowling making a loop. The loop can be tightened or relaxed to grip and set down the tube. This is so I dont have to hold the filled tube in my hand. Hand and tube are kept about 18 inches apart. This device is new and experimental.

4 ***) The table uses Titanium for sparks. I had already decided that I needed to buy some Titanium. What mesh should I buy. What produces the best sparks. Equally what are the best mesh sizes for Aluminium, Iron & Zinc?

[GreenGenie]

I have these:


Barium Carbonate
Parlon
Strontium carbonate
Cryolite
Zinc
Aluminium
Copper oxide
Potassium Nitrate
Sulphur
Charcoal


I have ordered some Potassium Perchlorate and Iron

I entirely understand that the chemistry and composition for different colours will be specific to the chemicals involved. However, I am surmising that each composition will share similar properties in common. A fuel to provide the energy. An oxygen or chlorine donor, one or more compounds providing the colour. Is there a table that recognizes this and produces formula for each colour listing the chemicals involved and quantities; suitable for putting into a tube as a fountain. Can you suggest any specific recipes for each of the colours. I am not confident that inventing compositions myself is a good idea or borrowing a composition designed for another purpose. I need specific formula and for safety's sake I would much prefer to use a recognized tried and tested formula that has been tried and endorsed by an experienced and knowledgeable member of the group like yourself.

**** I am very grateful for any help with general principles to help improve my understanding but if I am to get anywhere I am also going to need some actual detailed simple workable examples that I can try out.

Creepin Pyro has produced a very promising table using Magnalium as the fuel. Can anyone produce a table for workable colour Nitrate compositions (if there are any - Nitrate is beginning to look like a dead end for colour) and a table for workable perchlorate colour compositions suitable for fountains.

Edited by GreenGenie, 06 March 2009 - 01:12 PM.

[pyrotrev]

GG - to get a good colour from a nitrate comp. you're going to have to use magnesium or magnalium as a fuel. With an organic fuel the flame temperature isn't high enough to excite the various colouring species (BaCl, SrCl. SrO, Na) to emit a good colour - sorry!.

[Creepin_pyro]

You can get great colours from Nitrates of both Strontium and Barium, but you will struggle with Potassium Nitrate. There are some examples here:

http://www.skylighte...k-fountains.asp

[GreenGenie]

Thankyou Creepin Pyro

I am going to print out some of that and study it. You've been a great help.

I see that the Magnalium fuel will produce higher energy and less bleaching of colours (as magnesium is producing a lot of its light in the UV spectrum) than organic fuels. I will absolutely definitely be trying out some comps from your table.

I would still like to try some organic fuel though. Sorry to keep on about organic. Its probably because I have studied this this list of formulas for stars:

http://members.shaw.ca/gryphon223/PFP/

which list metal & organic fuels for coloured stars.

I am not actually sure what stars are. Is it ok to try the same formulas in a fountain? If I do, do I need to take out the binders from the composition.

Do I need to worried about the Ultra Violet light produced by the magnesium. Is there a minimum safe distance for the UV? I dont want to take risks with my eyesight or my family's eyesight.

[seymour]

I see that the Magnalium fuel will produce higher energy and less bleaching of colours (as magnesium is producing a lot of its light in the UV spectrum)

It is not quite like that. Organic fuels do not bleach the flame, but they may not (for example in Barium or Strontium nitrate compositions) produce enough energy to make the metal salt give off much colour. Magnesium and Aluminium (or alloyed to be Magnalium) excite the colour emitting ions, but can bleach it with the bright glare. The chlorides of them give light in the UV spectrum, so extra chlorine donor is often added to reduce the glare.

I would still like to try some organic fuel though. Sorry to keep on about organic. Its probably because I have studied this this list of formulas for stars:

Some organic colours are very good. Additionally, almost all metal fueled colours also have an organic fuel.

When you see a streak of sparks or a point of colour in the sky from a firework, this is from a star, which is a pellet of a firework composition that gives off its effect as it burns through the air.

Do I need to worried about the Ultra Violet light produced by the magnesium. Is there a minimum safe distance for the UV? I dont want to take risks with my eyesight or my family's eyesight.

I cannot see this being more than daylight.

I am not actually sure what stars are. Is it ok to try the same formulas in a fountain? If I do, do I need to take out the binders from the composition.

You may be able to remove it, but consider the fact that it will also be a fuel.

[digger]

http://members.shaw.ca/gryphon223/PFP/

That site looks remarkably like our very own Phil Dunfords website, maybe a bit of a rip off. Here is his site Clicky Clicky

[Creepin_pyro]

That site looks remarkably like our very own Phil Dunfords website, maybe a bit of a rip off. Here is his site Clicky Clicky

I doubt it - the PFP has been hosted there for many moons now.

[spanner]

I doubt it - the PFP has been hosted there for many moons now.

I would tend to agree- the PFP database seems to have become part of the public domain and Phil Dunford has never represented the work to be solely his.

In as much as the PFP info contains formulae from many people and has been around for ages, it does appears often- whole or in part. Something akin to Visser's database appearing here.

[GreenGenie]

I have found and tested a colour composition using Potassium Perchlorate & Strontium Carbonate which produced a very successful rich red. I report this as I have had a lot of replies to my initial enquiry stating that organic fuels are not suitable for coloured compositions. I would really like you guys to give me your views and hopefully to try this out. I thought it worked really well.

Here is where I found it:
http://newsgroups.de...3/msg01902.html

Potassium Chlorate 60%
Strontium Carbonate 20%
Dextrin 20%

I put it uncompacted into a cone.

[GreenGenie]

Whoops! I just realised that the receipe I just posted contained potassium chlorate. The receipe as I found it on the net listed potassium chlorate as the oxidiser. I substituted potassium perchlorate as I didnt want to use potassium chlorate due to its dangerous reputation. It produced a very satisfying red.