29 replies to this topic

[pyrotechnist]

Ok I am currently looking for anything that could be used as an alternative fuel or chlorine doner. Below is a bit of a list.

First one up: Gibberellic Acid - Formula: C19H22O6 - A plant hormone used to increase plant growth and seedlings, this sells on ebay and a few other sites but costs a lot at 3 quid for 100mg or 20 for 10g etc.

Esbiothrin - Formula: C19H26O3, cant find this product accept for large quantities. Used as an insecticide.

Tetramethrin - Formula: C19H25NO4, hard to get hold of in a pure form accept for in liquid insecticides. Not very harmful to humans, causes irritation to skin mainly.

Clofentezine - Formula: C14H8Cl2N4, insecticide again.

Tetrachlorophthalic anhydride - Formula: C8Cl4O3

CHLORDANE - Formula: C10H6Cl8

DIELDRIN - Formula: C12H8Cl6O

HEPTACHLOR - Formula: C10H5Cl7

TOXAPHENE - 67 - 68% chlorine content, lots of volatiles

TRICHLOROETHYLENE - Formula: C2HCl3

Hexamminecobalt(III) chloride - Formula: H18N6Cl3Co

Hexachlorophosphazene - Formula: N3Cl6P3


I aint sure where to get half of the above in a pure grade without having to buy in tons but I am sure promising results may be achievable with them. Has anyone else got others they can add?

[a_bab]

Insecticides are usually very toxic to humans. I'd never use something like this. You never know the full effects. If you can aquire these, cost effectively than you can certainly get PVC. There are many sources.

Besides, you have at least one which is liquid (TRICHLOROETHYLENE) and very volatile (used to remove grease). So useless.

You can't reinvent the wheel, believe me. Use your energy/time to search a cheaper blue or something; try to get a decent green/aqua out of zinc/KN based compo. That would be so much more usefull and appreciated by many.

Sorry, but when I saw the first one in your list (Gibberellic Acid) I started to wonder why don't I just trow my precious 100g of indium metal on some blue glitters experiments?

[phildunford]

You can't reinvent the wheel, believe me.

Reminds me of the chap who told his son not to go into science, because everthing had already been discovered - 1750 or something...

While some ideas may be dead ends or not practical or economical, research can surely only be a good thing...

[Arthur Brown]

Research is great, BUT temper it with the realism that price is ALL. There is little point in going into esoteric organics that have insecticidal properties as well. What is really needed is a small selection of low cost high activity ingredients.

One of the biggest drawbacks to new chems in commercial fireworks is the unknown risk of malfunction during or after long storage. Possibly all fireworks have been in store/ship/shop (etc) for 6 - 12 months before they get fired. Sometimes they cycle hot-cold sometimes dry-humid. With all these, the fireworks have to remain safe for use.

Most ingredients are found as byproducts of another industry, the entire pyro industry isn't big enough to support the R&D that plastics and other big industries can support.

[Mumbles]

I think just about every pesticide you mentioned is banned. There is one thing to do research and work off of previous knowledge and precedent, and another to go on a wild goose chase for new chlorine donors.

Several of the chlorine sources in the past were insecticides (HCB, lindane, dechlorane, etc), and they are all being phased out due to unavailability. More recently there has been somewhat of a shift toward flame retardant chemicals (Parlon, PVC, chlorowax). The flame retardant industry may be a place to look. They have brominated compounds as well which I have been looking into.

Inorganic salts have been tried before, and probably wont be great as chlorine donors. As coloring salts they may have better success.

[crystal palace fireworks]

I wonder if there is (UK or other countries), or there has been any on-going long term research into the storage of fireworks under different conditions?


Although we can`t compete with the big boys in other industries in terms of funding for research into pyro related products,..... I still believe small scale laboratory research can be done relatively cost effectively for our industry with encouraging results,....as we expand as a pyro society, then our options will increase in terms of aquiring government/EU funding for projects that cover this subject!

Edited by crystal palace fireworks, 18 January 2010 - 08:02 PM.

[wjames]

I think you might get flagged up on a few national databases if you order a combination of the items on that list......As previosuly mentioned, a good number of those are banned !

[digger]

Interesting as this is. I would like to second Phil in saying that research is what it is all about and that new ideas lead to the forwarding of our knowledge, even if only one in a thousand experiments find something new and useful.

However, yes a few of the chems you have picked should be avoided for the reasons stated.

It has to be said however that the Chinese flout the rules on banned substances when it comes to their fireworks. OK they may not list them on the specifications, but there have been a few seizures in Europe for fireworks that tested positive for HCB surprise surprise.

[MDH]

I have already posted extensively about this. Go find some potassium formate as an alternative de-icing salt. Not that I've ever seen it personally - but I live in a backwater place.

You can react pretty much any organic acid with a metallic carbonate.

Additionally, the cheapest star formula I have ever used:

Potassium Chlorate, 60%
Carbonate/Oxide, 20%
PVC, 15%
Dextrin, 5%

The only cheaper one does not support all colors, but supports red, orange and yellow:

Potassium Chlorate, 60%
Sodium/Strontium/Calcium Carbonate, 15%
Rice Flour, 20%
Dextrin, 5%

Chlorine donors are also easy. A substance that is not banned is Dechlorane Plus. This is not as good as dechlorane, but it omits the need for alternative fuels - a mixture of dechlorane plus, a carbonate, sulfur and an oxidizer alone will make a very nicely colored star.

Unfortunately, at the store you are not going to find a chlorine donor. Home synthesis is your only other option to simply buying it from a pyro supplier. Ammonium Chloride has been used as a chlorine donor, but does not yield particularly nice colors unless it is used in a high temperature composition.

Edited by MDH, 19 January 2010 - 03:58 AM.

[pyrotechnist]

Well I am glad this has sparked some discussion as that is what I originally intended for people to come up with ideas for better chlorine doners as only a select few seem to do research into finding new chemicals which in all respect is what drives this industry forward is it not? I know a few of them are banned and I also stated that on one and most are toxic but so are a few of the chemicals we use today in fireworks so no difference in that respect and as far as anyone is concerned about it killing bugs or animal life we have and use much worse in household ingredients.

a_bab research is essential in this hobby or industry as without it your stuck in the stone ages with chemicals that may get phased out for any new ones, plus what about cheaper or better alternatives? not that any are on my list that was just for a starting point to LOOK INTO new ideas. For instance atm I am trying to find and experiment with chemicals for producing a reasonable to good green without having to use toxic chemicals that I really don't want to have about in my storage area to be frank!

Thanks Mumbles I am currently looking into flame retardants. Remember research and new ideas is key for this industries development into the future otherwise we may a swell all quit while we are at it or disclose ourself's and become the Microsoft of pyrotechnics.

So any ideas for new chlorine doners etc then post them here .

[a_bab]

Sorry, but I didn't want to stop you or something to experiment. Pretty much all the great stuff discovered in pyrotechnics (and not only) was by accident. I really don't believe someone could predict the strobe or glitter effects on paper, scooped out the exact proportions of chems and presto: new effect. It's just that some of the chems in your list were clearly absurd.

I don't know what kind of chemicals you have access to, because I'd have plenty of ideas to test
If you're after a non toxic green, there are few options:
-barium sulphate/chromate (neither of these is soluble)
-copper greens
-zinc
-boron. Wish you luck on that one though. You'd be the first to get it.

Frankly speaking, you seem keen to test all kinds of pesticides, way more harmfull than barium salts, but you are afraid of barium. Seems a bit odd to me. My sense of danger beeps much louder when organics are involved then with heavy metal salts, which effects are better understood.
What I do believe is that you don't have access to good chems, in which case your quest for new effectts would be justified.

A new area I've noticed are nitrocellulose stars, as they burn smokelessly and need very little colorants. A bit of metal powders would enhance the effect alot. Expensive for amateur though...

Edited by a_bab, 19 January 2010 - 02:58 PM.

[RFD]

Pyrotechechnist, i think it is commendable that your putting time.expense and effort into experimentation,perhaps your choice of chems have "Lit the blue touchpaper" for some people, but without somebody having a go, this hobby,pastime,addiction will only stagnate,perhaps experimentation with more available chems would appeal to a wider populace,as some rightly say these are toxic chems but what isn't these days if you read all data sheets everything is just waiting to do you in.

A_bab, by NC stars do you mean NC bound stars or smokeless nitro powder based stars,i have used smokeless powder as shell booster,and its very good,no incompatibility issues and magnum powders produce large volumes of gas but as you say it can be expensive and not available to everyone.

[a_bab]

I meant stars with some 70% content of pure white NC (the one sold with 25% water in it). I saw this in a new documentary on NG channel.

[pyrotechnist]

I have yet to find a place that sells powdered NC accept for liquid though could a similar affect be achieved by soaking cotton in NC leaving it to dry and grinding it? Some of them chems I cannot get hold of cheaply without buying it in bulk sadly . Smokeless stars to me seem good but with colour the smoke can help to enhance the coloured flame by reflecting the coloured light.

Thanks RFD though I tend to be a bit mad when it comes to experimenting trying all sorts of fuels and chemicals I can possibly get my grubby hands on to find better or cheaper alternatives lol. My quests currently are for more vibrant colours without toxic (as toxic) chemicals that are cheaper and a crackle without using lead or bismuth I am also trying to find out if oxide comps can be used as base comps in stars to emit bright metal or charcoal trails but am getting varied results as they burn so dam hot.

a_bab about the boron im working on that , have tried boric acid which burns a good green in a flame but blue in a standard colour comp , tried both a hot and cold based comp to no avail. You can see the lovely colour boric acid produces by putting a spoon full or so in methanol and lighting it which will turn the flame a bright vivid green or put some on a bit of steel wire and stick it over a gas hob and watch it turn green.

Going back to chlorine doners I wonder how many more chlorine gems we have out there waiting to be discovered that can colour our basic comps more vibrant that is what this topic is for hopefully. So again any ideas or research that anyone else may have done?

Edited by pyrotechnist, 19 January 2010 - 05:43 PM.

[digger]

Going back to chlorine doners I wonder how many more chlorine gems we have out there waiting to be discovered that can colour our basic comps more vibrant that is what this topic is for hopefully. So again any ideas or research that anyone else may have done?

Just remember the basics when looking for chlorine donors. You are looking for a high percentage by mass of chlorine in the formula. This is why chemicals such as HCB were picked (over 75% chlorine) with a fuel content. Clearly some of the chemicals you listed which I guess were for the chlorine content have very low percentages by mass of chlorine, hence they would be of little use as a chlorine donor.

So you need to look into chems with a higher chlorine mass ration before you start spending money (take a look at toxicity too).