37 replies to this topic

[MDH]

Interesting tip. Thanks for that one. I will give it a go.

Usual 70:30?

No, I would say 60:40 is a better set of ratios. You can add 2% oxychloride or iron oxide if you like. It doesn't need sulfur, it's already quite sensitive to initiation.

[pyrotrev]

No, I would say 60:40 is a better set of ratios. You can add 2% oxychloride or iron oxide if you like. It doesn't need sulfur, it's already quite sensitive to initiation.

That's interesting, 60:40 is slightly underoxidised, will produce a larger volume of cooler gas than 70:30.

[MDH]

Give it a try yourself - it is excellent.

[digger]

Give it a try yourself - it is excellent.

Wow that stuff is expensive from the home brew shops, in excess of £5 for 50 grams.

However I have just contacted one of my suppliers and he can offer it at a price of £5 per kg for finely powdered potassium sorbate if anyone is interested. I will have it in stock next week.

[MDH]

Did you try it, digger?

Also, you should know it can be used to make other sorbates.

[digger]

Did you try it, digger?

Also, you should know it can be used to make other sorbates.

I have not tried it yet, but I trust your judgment and research on this.

One question do you make it up by the wet method with the catalyst or just dry mix.

I will give it a go next weekend.

[MDH]

I dry-mix it in quantities of about 10 grams at a time. While I have tested it for sensitivity and it seems to be around the same as whistle, it's not a widely used formula so I never make large amounts at once.

I usually combine the iron oxide and potassium sorbate seperately, then mix them with KCLO4. As I said before, 60:40 are excellent ratios but they may not be 100% optimal - you could dry 55:45, or 65:35 but to me it seems like 60:40 "clicks" as being the fastest I have used.

If you react it with copper sulfate or acetate, you can make copper sorbate which makes very nice blue stars with ammonium perchlorate, similar to copper benzoate.

Edited by MDH, 12 February 2010 - 12:11 PM.

[digger]

I take it that the coppper sorbate is practicaly insoluble like the benzoate.

[MDH]

Yes - it doesn't dissolve in water, so it can be separated from the solution quite easily. I personally find that 75:25 as ratios with ammonium perchlorate are nice, but personally I stick to 60:28:12 ratios with potassium perchlorate, copper sorbate and parlon.

As a loose composition both will burn with a fiercely bright light and not a very saturated color, but as stars the blue is excellent. Both in perticular burn somewhat slowly as stars, so it is crucial to make sure they are only 6-8 millimeters for large mines or shells.

I haven't tried barium sorbate yet. From what I heard it is a highly soluble salt which tends to limit my inclination to try it out.

Edited by MDH, 13 February 2010 - 03:19 AM.

[MDH]

Hi digger,

how did the tests go for you?

[digger]

A few sacks of the sorbate arrived yesterday to my store location. I will pop over later and pick up a sample to play with.

[MDH]

Not to be redundant, but how did the tests go? Did you find a more suitable ratio than I did with the 60:40? It certainly is quite a fast composition, isn't it.

I also forgot to mention that this substance makes very clean burning flares, though it's questionable if they should be used in flares when compared to cheaper materials. The flame is quite transparent and slow burning with nitrates, very different than potassium sorbate with a chlorate. I thought to myself that perhaps when I am able to obtain ammonium nitrate (Which is hard here given terrorism suspicions) that I could combine copper sorbate and ammonium chloride with it to obtain that same transparent flame quality, but blue instead.

[digger]

Not to be redundant, but how did the tests go? Did you find a more suitable ratio than I did with the 60:40? It certainly is quite a fast composition, isn't it.

I also forgot to mention that this substance makes very clean burning flares, though it's questionable if they should be used in flares when compared to cheaper materials. The flame is quite transparent and slow burning with nitrates, very different than potassium sorbate with a chlorate. I thought to myself that perhaps when I am able to obtain ammonium nitrate (Which is hard here given terrorism suspicions) that I could combine copper sorbate and ammonium chloride with it to obtain that same transparent flame quality, but blue instead.

Just tried it out tonight.

I made up a few 5g batches of different ratios. The best uncatalysed mix was 65:35. I would say it was slightly faster than uncatalysed whistle (potassium or sodium benz). I tried it catalysed with +2% of copper oxychloride and that upped the anti somewhat. It would seem to of a similar speed to catalysed sodium salicylate whistle. Which is great as that is what I have used as a booster in the past, even though it is a pain to keep dry.

So I guess I will give the oxychloride catalysed mix a go at some point to see how it goes as a booster in some small shells (the toughest test).

You say it is expensive stuff. If you know where to look it can be had very cheaply (less than pot benz).

I will give the copper sorbate a go in a week or two when I get a few spare minutes.

Anyway good stuff cheers

[MDH]

Glad to hear it went well for you - I tend to keep my compositions in a dry location. Has it proved to be less hygroscopic?

Also, if you've given copper sorbate a try, I'd be happy to know how it went for you.

[Potassium chlorate]

I would prefer the potassium salt. Can you make potassium salicylate from potassium carbonate and salicylic acid? Shouldn't be a problem, should it?