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Possibility of starting a new firework manufacturing business


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Poll: The possibility of starting a new firework manufacturing business in Britain. (33 member(s) have cast votes)

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#16 digger

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Posted 02 July 2010 - 04:20 PM

That is true but we cannot just give up or not produce businesses on the sole reason the Chinese will out run us as we will be even more worse off than we are now, we are heading deeper into the abyss at the moment with our unstable, useless economy. What is Britain to do with no manufacturing? I see a few companies start up in Britain and they are small at times and are beat on some prices via the cheap competition and yet they stay in business with their British born products. Some people like the fact things are made in Britain and some times it is of a better quality than the cheap tat we get from abroad. Im sure not going to see our pyro industry go down the hill even more and even demise, once its gone its virtually gone! We follow and kiss Americas ass yet we dont follow with their laws on pyro, I so wish they did.


Unfortunately, a business has to make money. You may be in a minority in being prepared to pay more. One thing is certain though retailers control their costs very carefully.

I am not saying there is not room for a UK producer. Kimbolten have survived, but they only make a carful selection of items and import the rest.
Phew that was close.

#17 Mumbles

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Posted 02 July 2010 - 08:29 PM

As far as how much to pay your employees, how little can you get away with? When I worked at a fireworks factory, maybe a couple dollars over minimum wage, and I was the highest paid non-manager there.

#18 pyrotechnist

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Posted 03 July 2010 - 09:25 AM

What country did you work in Mumbles?

It seems you would need around 10 or 13 million to probably get going with a new large scale site, maybe some grants could be had but not sure. Where one can save money using automatic processes then that should be employed where possible to save money on employing staff. Trying to take apart each process and firework to see where cuts can be made and costs saved.

Edited by pyrotechnist, 03 July 2010 - 04:23 PM.

fireworks is my aim setting of is the game

#19 Mumbles

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Posted 05 July 2010 - 06:24 PM

The US. I'd be happy to offer any suggestions/information you'd like. Obviously some of it is proprietary and they probably wouldn't be too happy with me giving out such things. \

10-13 million seems pretty high. The last estimate I saw was 600,000-800,000 $US investment. I'd imagine land might be a bit cheaper and more plentiful here, and I'm not sure what licensing and compliance would cost there.

#20 Arthur Brown

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Posted 05 July 2010 - 06:49 PM

Trouble is that you can't buy off nimbyism. In the UK there is someone within 5 miles wherever you are so you need to buy up so much land and property just to secure the neighbours for planning purposes.
http://www.movember.com/uk/home/

Keep mannequins and watermelons away from fireworks..they always get hurt..

#21 digger

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Posted 05 July 2010 - 07:15 PM

The numbers here all seem a bit sus to me.

Yes planning is an issue, but not unsurmountable with the correct site. (esp. ex RAF, ex MOD, ex quarry, contaminated (maybe lease), etc etc etc).

It all depends on what you call a business. As people have already mentioned on this site before look at Dean Fireworks, OK it is a marginal business that I believe may be currently struggling, but that started up with a much much smaller budget than is being discussed here.

With those numbers it would pretty much rule it out as a UK business, as there would not be a short enough payback period.
Phew that was close.

#22 Guest_PyroPDC_*

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Posted 06 July 2010 - 02:26 AM

This has already been covered, but the basics are that the making of cakes is an extremely labour intensive task (OK a few devices maybe viable, like mines etc). Hence we would not be able to compete with Chinese products on labour costs alone ($100 per month is good for a Chinese worker).


yes i agree some things like cakes can be labour intense but the Chinese are stuck in there ways, we though can use innovative products like wasp machines, which can take away the labour part.

#23 digger

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Posted 06 July 2010 - 07:18 AM

yes i agree some things like cakes can be labour intense but the Chinese are stuck in there ways, we though can use innovative products like wasp machines, which can take away the labour part.


I would like to see a cake making mackine though.
Phew that was close.

#24 pyrotechnist

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Posted 06 July 2010 - 05:21 PM

Wasp machines? I wasn't intending on borrowing that amount of money so no pay back. Oooh who voted impossible?

Edited by pyrotechnist, 06 July 2010 - 05:22 PM.

fireworks is my aim setting of is the game

#25 CCH Concepts

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Posted 07 July 2010 - 01:04 PM

I used to work for a small car parts manurfacture on there design team, they used to design and make all there production machinery. This I how they kept there costs down, now I don't know what additional costs would be envolved with the Pyro element. But if this went ahead I would be happy to lend my skills, I'm no expert but I'm sure we could design suitable machinery if we can find a good Programmer and fabricator. It might take. While to recoup initial cost, but with machine workers rather than pyrotechnictions and only a few of them, costs would be alot lower.

#26 digger

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Posted 07 July 2010 - 01:42 PM

I used to work for a small car parts manurfacture on there design team, they used to design and make all there production machinery. This I how they kept there costs down, now I don't know what additional costs would be envolved with the Pyro element. But if this went ahead I would be happy to lend my skills, I'm no expert but I'm sure we could design suitable machinery if we can find a good Programmer and fabricator. It might take. While to recoup initial cost, but with machine workers rather than pyrotechnictions and only a few of them, costs would be alot lower.


What do you use? I use Autodesk Inventor and CATIA. The pyro bit will be expensive. I just do not know how you could make a machine for making cakes. Yes it could be done. But there are so many unit operations that it would be a big expensive beasty. Just break down it down into each operation

plugging the shot tubes (multiple sizes to consider)
punching fuse holes in the shot tubes.
threading the fuse (think of all the different configurations possible)
assembling the tubes into a cake (again multiple configurations)
Plugging the insert tubes with a fuse.
Weighing out various components and filling the inserts.
plugging the inserts.
Weighing out lift charge into the cake.
putting the inserts into the cake.
labeling the cake.
boxing them.
(I will have missed a fair few steps out too)

I know you would not automate all of the operations as it is not practicable. However I would guess you would be looking at a very long design phase for a machine to do this (esp. if done by one person). The experimental work that would need to be done would be immense, just think of all of those critical steps where there are live compositions and the possibility of friction. What if the machine misses a slot and hammers an insert?. A big HAZOP study.

I would guess you would be looking at the thick end of 500K for a machine upto code (ATEX, DESEAR, don't forget DSEAR now covers mechanical as we as electrical now).

A nice thought, but unless undertaken by an existing profitable manufacturer with a decent R&D budget I just don't see how it could be done.

I think the way to think about manufacture in this country is to concentrate on high value, low volume, custom products. This is where labour cost is not so important as you are paying for craftsmanship and not just banging out 10's of thousands of the same item. As I say that is possible, but I just don't see how the money could be raised easily for such a project (most of the big money stuff I do pays back in about 2 years).
Phew that was close.

#27 Arthur Brown

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Posted 07 July 2010 - 01:42 PM

Actually I think several UK users would like there to be a UK manufacturing facility where specials could be hand made and really nice shells produced. However the current state of the public attitude would never allow planning permissions for "explosives factories and stores" Getting the site with planning permissions, and all the HSE licences would be so expensive as to approach prohibitive
http://www.movember.com/uk/home/

Keep mannequins and watermelons away from fireworks..they always get hurt..

#28 rocketpro

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Posted 07 July 2010 - 01:47 PM

------

Edited by rocketpro, 06 August 2010 - 09:32 AM.

Who tests the tester.


#29 digger

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Posted 07 July 2010 - 02:11 PM

Actually I think several UK users would like there to be a UK manufacturing facility where specials could be hand made and really nice shells produced. However the current state of the public attitude would never allow planning permissions for "explosives factories and stores" Getting the site with planning permissions, and all the HSE licences would be so expensive as to approach prohibitive


As you know Arthur this may be a reality in the not too distant future. The HSE costs in my opinion are just a small part of it (OK a decent wedge of cash, however small in comparison to the investment cost in buildings, storage, machinery and materials).

There are sites out there with the appropriate provisions NOW (with a little bit of lateral thinking regarding certain issues to make it viable).

Edited by digger, 07 July 2010 - 02:12 PM.

Phew that was close.

#30 CCH Concepts

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Posted 07 July 2010 - 02:15 PM

Tube positioning, plugging, hole punching, glueing and taping shouldn't be to hard.

Fusing, filling with lift and making inserts would be alot harder. But not impossible.

I think the way of going higher end and lower volume would be have a website, with X amount of cake variants, bores and shot count and then a range of inserts and timings. customer could design there own cake on the site like you can a card on moonpig.

You would need a good programmer to have a java app that can convert this into an instruction for the production line.

Once the ground work is done, you would have a unique product on offer.




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