15 replies to this topic

[Aussie Pyro King]

Coud this be an alternative to flash?

"AP was developed in the late 1880s as a replacement for black powder. It is an intimate mixture of 85 percent ammonium nitrate and 15 percent charcoal. It was used by Germany and Austria as an artillery propellant until nitrocellulose-based powders became commonly available. It was extremly powerful and was virtually smokeless and flashless."

If anyone has made this could they please tell me what the sensitivity is like. I'm thinking about making small shell inserts with it because flash is so expensive. The mixture will be highly hydroscopic though. Please tell me if its too dangerous and I'll keep away from it.

[alany]

It's a whole lot safer than flash, it is typically made by ball milling.

[Aussie Pyro King]

What is its power compared to flash?

Will it ignite with ordinary fuse?

[alany]

I've never made it, but it is said to be somewhat slower than BP and a little harder to ignite because it has no sulfur. It will take fire from fuse just fine. It suffers from the usual AN phase change and hygroscopic problems, but it is a very cheap and low smoke propellant.

It is definately no replacement for flash, or even really BP, but it makes a good smokeless replacement. For report usage it would need good containment just like any maroon. It is hard to granulate, you can't use water as the solvent very easily.

[BigG]

Also, you must remember that the moment u use ammonium, you cannot use chlorate in the device. Double composition of ammonium salts and chlorates forms ammonium chlorate - which is a very unstable compound. Ammonium chlorate is know to detonate without any particular reason. Industrial manufacture of barium chlorate has an ammonium chlorate (in a solution, where it is stable) step. But I know of a guy who ?forgot? ammonium chlorate in a solution and it dried up ? and in midday, for no go reason, his workshop window ?flown? out of his frame. Luckily, none was hurt.

[bernie]

My only reference is T.L. Davis :

"It is insensitive to shock and friction, and is more difficult to ignite than black powder. In use it requires a strong igniter charge. It burns rapidly, and in gunnery is used in the form of single-perforated cylindrical grains usually of a diameter near equal to that of the space within the cartridge."

[Stuart]

I think when it says powerful it means if a shockwave is passed through it and is initiated like a high explosive

[PanMaster]

I have tried to use it for ballistics before and it failed badly, it certainly isn't smokeless, try using a version using part potassium and ammonium nitrate for increased reliability.

Edited by PanMaster, 08 February 2004 - 04:03 PM.

[Phoenix]

How about using it for rocket propellant? It should be nice and gassy and the lower burning rate won't be such an issue. Bear in mind that ammonium nitrate, especially if damp (which is of course very likely) will rapidly _annihilate_ most common metals. If I remember rightly, copper nitrate will form in the presence of copper, and this is an explosive itself. I don't know how lead would fare, but I wouldn't mill this with metal media, and certainly not brass.

If you can get ammonium nitrate particularly cheaply or already have some you could make potassium nitrate from it and potassium carbonate.

If it's a flash you want, fine grain BP and perhaps 15% coarsely powdered naphthalene will provide a safe (as far as I am aware), and moderately fast powder. It's brighter than BP, but not as bright as a metal-based flash. Stinks to high heaven though, and it's possibly carcinogenic. Use appropriate mask, gloves etc. Also, meal powder with 10% added aluminium will provide a good bright flash, although I guess it's the aluminium that makes it expensive.

[BurlHorse]

I agree with BigG, and Bernie your on track too. I will say this, Ammoniun perc is one of the slower burning Oxidizers, and cooler burning, hence it's use in premium colors :I.E; Cooler burning with the right fuels. There are quite a few alternatives to flash for making a bang, whistle mix I.E: 70/30 Potassium Perc/Potassium Benzoate or Sodium Benzoate, the latter being hygroscopic also. When contained, these (with the comp left loose) in the casing are pretty good boomers what about 8mm dragon eggs? Not very loud but certainly entertaining..

Ammoniun nitrate with a sensitizer "fuel oil or nitromethane", is anfo and a HE, tests personally conducted with my Partner Tim, with this stuff tell me to tell you to leave it alone. Besides, it takes a substantial initiator to get it to go bang. When it does go bang, you may not be prepared for the devil you unleashed. I.E; we used it to remove trees, Big trees, from a friends property. Disclaimer, Tim is special forces, Demolitions......and was taught from a military instructor, the "Right" way to make, handle/detonate, and as such blasters permit was obtained for tree removal. Not for pyro or the faint of heart or mind. The brissance of this stuff does not lend itself to pyro in any way anyway.....better for heaving coal or dirt piles...+

Since your utlimate goal is cheap bangers for shell inserts, this route does not accomplish any of your goals and as BigG Pointed out, may seriously shorten your Pyro kingmanship.

I thought Aussie Metals had cheap Aluminum? You have said chems are more readily available down under, I would think good ol 70/30 would be your best bet. Probably not the answer you wanted, just my humble 2 cents.

Regards, Stay Green and away from HE...Flash is enough....

Bear

[alany]

Even at the crazy price I paid for KP my 7/3 Flash made with AMPS' bright Al works out at about 3 cents per gram which I think is pretty acceptable. It is definately more flash and less concussion, but even mild containment makes it go bang quite loudly.

[Aussie Pyro King]

Thanks

I can still make flash but it seemed like a very easy alternative. Now that I know its not very powderful I don't see any point in making it.

[BurlHorse]

, good, very good!

Regards, Stay Green

Bear

[adamw]

Yeah 'Kinepak' as you like to call it over there (I suppose it is the trade name though) is fun - but a whole world away from fireworks. Lets not start on about this.

Basically with Ammonium Nitrate, unless you use absolutely pure stuff you are going to end up with a slushy mess, or depending on the composition, a slushy dangerous mess. I have read of one more interesting use for NH4NO3 - make a warm saturated solution of it and soak a rolled up newspaper in it. Dry out, tie in a bundle and light. Should produce large amounts of smoke... or so I have read. Didnt work for me.

[Aussie Pyro King]

I think that's a waste. I'll use my ammonium nitrate in rocket propellant instead.

Thanks