82 replies to this topic

[Rip Rap]

Obviously, the current setup of collection only of these chemicals is not ideal.

BUT, as Wayne has said, this is a new licence and hopefully this can be ironed out or made a lot easier for both suppliers and buyers.

If Wayne is meeting with the HO, he will be able to air these concerns.

As for suggestions, I take it that facetime holding your licence and ID or similar pic sent to supplier would be no good? And then post the licence to the supplier to fill in and send back with the order. Obviously only sending to the name and address on the licence.

[dave]

wayne,

 

I don't think any disrespect is meant by anyone

 

the previous posts all basically reflect a frustration that what we thought was good maybe is not so good after all.

 

if you have a meeting with hse planned please could I ask if these nuances can be clarified or an alternative put forward to allow purchases without actually personal pick up.

 

will mobile phone face to face be acceptable ?

 

, send the certificate off, receive back with order.

 

in answer to your question to Kenneth, yes I too responded to both questionaires

 

a solution that does not work for everyone is not a solution at all.

also some people are better placed to actually have more influence than others.

 

I maintain my previous held position that basically the authorities that be do not really want the man in the street to have access to certain materials, so I realistically expect no change to the proposals, but hope I am proved wrong.

 

................hoping for a workable solution....................

[www.oliverbrown.co.uk]

Ok, so I think what would be helpful rather than the ranting would be some constructive input.

I'll start with my ideas and see if we can come up with something to suggest to HO.

 

A way to safely supply that makes sense to me would be to get suppliers to register with HO and have access to view the database of registered license holders, be able to see the license number and address details. (Possibly be able to update records but I'll come to that)

When a customer wishes to purchase restricted products they would need to post the license to the supplier for the first time, the supplier can then login to the HO database and check if the license is real and all the details match, if the details are correct then the products could be sent by a registered courier to the customer, this would be a chance for HO to capture tracking details of packages to make sure they travel safely, the database could also be updated at this point with the purchase details so HO knows about the purchase even before it arrives with the customer.

I believe this makes photo ID unnecessary for mail orders as even if someone has obtained someone else’s license it is useless to them as the products will ultimately end up being shipped to the owner of the license.

 

Any thoughts?

[dannytsg]

www.oliverbrown.co.uk, on 02 Sept 2014 - 11:04 PM, said:

Ok, so I think what would be helpful rather than the ranting would be some constructive input.
I'll start with my ideas and see if we can come up with something to suggest to HO.

A way to safely supply that makes sense to me would be to get suppliers to register with HO and have access to view the database of registered license holders, be able to see the license number and address details. (Possibly be able to update records but I'll come to that)
When a customer wishes to purchase restricted products they would need to post the license to the supplier for the first time, the supplier can then login to the HO database and check if the license is real and all the details match, if the details are correct then the products could be sent by a registered courier to the customer, this would be a chance for HO to capture tracking details of packages to make sure they travel safely, the database could also be updated at this point with the purchase details so HO knows about the purchase even before it arrives with the customer.
I believe this makes photo ID unnecessary for mail orders as even if someone has obtained someone else’s license it is useless to them as the products will ultimately end up being shipped to the owner of the license.

Any thoughts?

That sounds like a very good suggestion.

A similar thing was done when the VCRA came into effect with regards to checking the legitimacy of Airsoft players prior to them being able to purchase a real imitation firearm.

All the responsible retailers formed an association called the UKARA and created a centrally accessible database. Anyone wanting to buy a real imitation firearm or other restricted goods had to be a registered player with their own UKARA number and also be verified as being and active player.

Basically what I am getting at is that a very similar system is already in place with the UKARA. If you place an order, then you have to provide your UKARA numbers and some form of verification - in most instances this is done by using a debit/credit card for the transaction which is in your name and registered to your address. This is then checked against the UKARA database and once clarified the RIF is shipped to the address that is held on the database and no other.

In summary maybe if Joe Bloggs of 123 street could place an order with a pyrotechnics supplier, the supplier can then check the database to verify that a license is held for Joe Blogs of 123 street. Verification Is compounded as Joe Bloggs paid using a visa debit registered to him and the cross check of home address for te card and what is held on the database match. Good are then dispatched to the address held on the database and a signature proof of delivery obtains by the courier.

Then the electronic register/database is updated with transaction details as well as date of dispatch and date of receipt via signature?

Hope that hasn't muddled things

[Arthur Brown]

My issue with courier delivery is that many houses are unoccupied during the courier day, I used to have items delivered to my work's stores (all couriers know it and most are in twice a day) If I have to wait in for a week to receive a parcel I've just used a week of annual leave.

 

As the licence currently stipulates face to face, then unless and until the law is changed that'show it must be. Nothing says "at the vendor's premises" so currently it's up to the vendors to to take orders and then "open shop" somewhere to see the licences and transfer the product.

 

UKPS AGM is one obvious opportunity, but if vendors don't want to declare their site then "the car park or the "dog and duck" is a viable meeting point. -Take orders prepare them then do the face to face bit face to face.

[www.oliverbrown.co.uk]

Arthur Brown, on 03 Sept 2014 - 06:44 AM, said:

UKPS AGM is one obvious opportunity, but if vendors don't want to declare their site then "the car park or the "dog and duck" is a viable meeting point. -Take orders prepare them then do the face to face bit face to face.

I estimate there to be somewhere around 5 - 10k pyro hobbiests in the UK and more home experimenters / chemists that have a need for these restricted products, I also make a guess that about 20 - 50 of you attend the UKPS AGM so I don't see this an an opportunity at all and certainly not something to be taken in to consideration by HO.

Decent courier services send a txt the night before the packages is going to be delivered and give you the option to schedual a different delivery date by texting back a number (1 for day after tomorrow, 2 for the next day ect) so it gives the customer some scope to arrange to be at tome to accept the delivery, if they still can't manage this then the package is returned back to the vendor, this has to be a better option than driving a few hundred miles and meeting up in the car park of "The dog and Duck".

[dave]

some good sugestions there, from oliverbrown.co.uk

fave to face could still be done on a mobile

[phildunford]

For my two pennyworth, face to face will never work. We have about 4 legitimate suppliers and I'm not taking a trip from Dorset to Yorkshire for 100g of anything...

 

HO have got to find a way that suppliers can check a license online, easily & quickly. I take Arthurs point, but can't see  any way around someone being in to sign.

 

I think HO have to have a serious rethink about this, otherwise they will single handidly create a black market. Its such a bad system that cynical me wonders if they did it like this to stop all experimentation while appearing to be on our side. The chap that came to the AGM seemed pretty sensible & I can't see that he would not realize how fundamentally floored such a system is. It's only practical use is to legitimize stocks that people already have.

 

Over to you Wayne!

Edited by phildunford, 03 September 2014 - 03:05 PM.

[Arthur Brown]

AS the licence stands it will make the few pyro experimenters get a licence then buy vastly over their needs to amortise the time and money spent collecting it. I propose to see what I can get at the AGM next year and buy enough to get through the year.

 

I see these regs as increasing the stock of chems in private hands.

[fruitfulsteve]

I'm sure a few people will have some issues with privacy and such like but personally i think Oliver Browns suggestion would be a good compromise and once set up fairly straightforward for all involved.

[wayne]

Just a few quick question everyone:

 

1. I assume at this is in relation to 5(2) of the regulations:

 

(2) In order to verify that someone has the requisite licence, it is sufficient for these purposes to—

 

(a) inspect the person’s licence, and

 

(b ) inspect the form of identification specified in that licence (or, if no form is specified, a form of identification sufficient to allow the supplier to verify that the person is the holder of the licence in question).

 

2. Why is everyone quoting only collecting 100g?  Why not 5kg or whatever?  What stipulates such small quantities?

Edited by wayne, 04 September 2014 - 11:10 AM.

[www.oliverbrown.co.uk]

wayne, on 04 Sept 2014 - 10:21 AM, said:

2. Why is everyone quoting only collecting 100g?  Why not 5kg or whatever?  What stipulates such small quantities?

Contrary to popular belief us pyronuts are extremely safety conscious, why risk storing more oxidisers than you need for the next few months, same reason you only keep 1 gallon of petrol for your mower, common sense.

[martyn]

Depends how you store your oxidisers I suppose.
It could be argued they are safer stored in their original drums in a secure store, rather than in a bag under the bed

Note two  years worth of cobwebs!

Edited by martyn, 04 September 2014 - 12:24 PM.

[Arthur Brown]

My issue is the cost of collection amortised over the permitted sale mass. If I have to drive 100 miles I want to get more than 100g, I'd be looking for more like 10 kilos, but that then gets to be a lot to store and use so where is the line between  too far and too much to store? Where would a suspicious transaction start.

[wayne]

www.oliverbrown.co.uk, on 04 Sept 2014 - 11:37 AM, said:

Contrary to popular belief us pyronuts are extremely safety conscious, why risk storing more oxidisers than you need for the next few months, same reason you only keep 1 gallon of petrol for your mower, common sense.

 

I agree, but also it has to be practical.  Collecting 100g of oxidiser a time is just not practical.  Multiple Kg's is practical.

 

I see no problem with storing multiple kg's of oxidiser if you have a licence to obtain.  The amounts have to be practical to the application.  1-10 kgs I would say is practical in our application.

 

Again I repeat, why is everyone stating only collecting 100g of a chosen chemical?  I see no reference in the regulations on restricting amounts to that level.