77 replies to this topic

[digger]

I agree Rod.

 

see my edited post above, I do not see why anything we could make at 100g could not be stored in a way that would ensure HT3. For example if you had 2 big boxes with vermiculite in and a 100g salute in the middle, if you set one off the other would not go. Hence by definition the hazard type is HT3 as there was no mass explosion.

Edited by digger, 30 September 2014 - 08:13 AM.

[maxman]

Gareth, with that in mind do you think the following example could be used in this way as "an experiment"

 

After a member has perfected a reliable 4OZ BP core burner motor to be used as a means to test the colour saturation of starts at a high altitude.

 

BP of various types is stored in the box for use as and when the experiment is to start. The member uses this BP to make a "number" of 4OZ BP core burners that have a NEQ of say 16g (I think that's about right) No header / burst etc so these devices would be 1.4G correct ? These are then stored as per regular fireworks under 21 days (or 5kg indefinite) as the total of 6 motors would only be 96g

 

So at this stage we have our box of BP locked away and 6 motors totalling 96g stored

 

We then manufacture 30g red and 30g green stars and let them dry

 

at the time of the experiment we make the header with a few red/green stars and some binary made flash and ad this to the ready made motor which should make the device 1.3G to be tested (within 5 days)?

 

OR will the fact that the member has made one 1.3G or one 1.1G item then mean that my box of JTF fireworks suddenly ALL become 1.1G / 1.3G?

 

My head hurts. I wish I didn't have so many questions.

 

Rod

[wayne]

Fair comment, I just wanted to point out that the gudance is not saying everthing made should be HT1, otherwise we are back to the point at which the rules become overbearingly restrictive and make it vitually impossible to do anything other than a single experiment at a time.

 

In fact I can only think of one item at 100g that should be classed as HT1 and then I have seen packing for transport in the past that has passed 6c testing to make that device 1.3 / 1.4. So with some common sense and care we should be able to store pretty much anything that we could make under the regulations indefinitley.

 

Yes, agreed.  Common sense is the key and its up to the individual to decide classification although I would recommend that storage of any experimental item is not indefinite - this is outside the scope of an experiment.

 

See this for the UN classifications:

 

http://www.hse.gov.u...e-fireworks.htm

 

Lets not get hung up on storage too much, at the end of the day, the storage requirements for experimental pyro should be minimal.  Any storage should only be for holding articles/substances whilst waiting for appropriate time to fire or while a manufacturing stage is in progress (drying etc).

Edited by wayne, 30 September 2014 - 08:52 AM.

[wayne]

Gareth, with that in mind do you think the following example could be used in this way as "an experiment"

 

After a member has perfected a reliable 4OZ BP core burner motor to be used as a means to test the colour saturation of starts at a high altitude.

 

BP of various types is stored in the box for use as and when the experiment is to start. The member uses this BP to make a "number" of 4OZ BP core burners that have a NEQ of say 16g (I think that's about right) No header / burst etc so these devices would be 1.4G correct ? These are then stored as per regular fireworks under 21 days (or 5kg indefinite) as the total of 6 motors would only be 96g

 

So at this stage we have our box of BP locked away and 6 motors totalling 96g stored

 

We then manufacture 30g red and 30g green stars and let them dry

 

at the time of the experiment we make the header with a few red/green stars and some binary made flash and ad this to the ready made motor which should make the device 1.3G to be tested (within 5 days)?

 

OR will the fact that the member has made one 1.3G or one 1.1G item then mean that my box of JTF fireworks suddenly ALL become 1.1G / 1.3G?

 

My head hurts. I wish I didn't have so many questions.

 

Rod

 

If you have any 1.1g fireworks, all fireworks stored default to 1.1g, so yes, your JTF selection box becomes 1.1g.

 

Bear in mind that each device or substance manufactured must be <= 100g

 

Also, the BP box is for exactly that, BP (or other shooters powders), not the storage of fireworks.  Any fireworks stored without a storage licence should be simply stored "appropriately" as per regulations.

Edited by wayne, 30 September 2014 - 08:57 AM.

[digger]

That is not completely accurate with respect to storage. In fact as long as your inter magazine distance is more than in column G (IIRC) you could have a HT1 and a HT3/4 store on the same site (I have done the same in the past to maximise my HT1 store).

 

So basically store your JTF fireworks as you would have previously and keep your experimental store a suitable distance from these. The only proviso is you can't exceed the totals allowed for the "site" with respect to allowable storage times without a licence/registration. Hey why not get a registered store anyway as they are generally thought of as enthusiast’s stores, then most of this discussion becomes completely void. P.S. 25kg of HT3 requires no distances!

 

Anyway I assume that you will never have more that the 100g of experimental bits at HT1 so you will not have to worry about HT1 storage as it is out of scope of the regulations (assuming stored separately). You will then make this into devices that will be stored at HT3/HT4 by means of ensuring that they are packaged in a way to make them such, so no big deal.

 

Wayne, whilst not wanting to get hung up on this. This is an important issue for many people here. As many people I assume would like to be able to test 10 or 15 100g experiments at one time to minimise disruption to neighbours and possibly in front of a few people to demonstrate different techniques etc.

 

P.S. be careful when describing storage as 1.1 etc. These are transport classifications and can differ from storage hazard types. For instance you could conceivably store a number of 1.1g cartons as HT3 if suitably isolated from each other (not that I am advocating this).

 

Edited by digger, 30 September 2014 - 09:24 AM.

[wayne]

Yes, inter store distances will allow for storage of both HT1 and HT3/4 on the same site, but I think this is slightly out of scope of the guidance and most peoples back gardens!  Whilst you are correct, again this really isn't relevant for most and will tend to confuse matters.  

 

If individuals are taking their storage requirements to that level, the guidance is not the document to refer to.  Only the regulations and the overarching guidance will cover this.

Edited by wayne, 30 September 2014 - 10:00 AM.

[rocketpro]

Can we please keep this thread on course regarding  "Experimental pyrotechnics" and not how we could possibly circumnavigate or "bend" the rules.

 

(polite request) 

Edited by rocketpro, 30 September 2014 - 10:30 AM.

[Rip Rap]

People, can we please keep this thread on course regarding  "Experimental pyrotechnics" and not how we could possibly circumnavigate or "bend" the rules.

 

Certainly not what I have taken from this thread - I have got clarification on storage and feel happier that I will be staying within the "rules"  

[rocketpro]

Agreed. It`s the sensible way forward.

[wayne]

We are all at the very beginning with this and it will take time for it all to fall into place.  I've been at this for 6 years but I still wouldn't profess to know everything.  The guidance is there as a starting block and will assist to clear away most of the grey areas and will be continually refined as we move forward.

[digger]

Absolutely no rule bending being advocated by me, quite the opposite in fact. Just showing ways to stay within the rules.

 

Wayne it is a great document, I was just trying to clarify some of the associated rules so people can maximise what they can do without breaking the law.

 

A lot of people have a 9 meter garden, so quite easy to put a 225kg HT4 and a 25kg HT3 in with just a registration as no separation would be required from any dwelling for this.

 

So back to the plot....................................

[wayne]

A lot of people have a 9 meter garden, so quite easy to put a 225kg HT4 and a 25kg HT3 in with just a registration as no separation would be required from any dwelling for this.

 

Certainly possible, but I wouldn't want to live near them   

[maxman]

Just an observation, but it is amazingly quiet on here with just a handful of people posting. This is it guys I expected input from everyone with questions and suggestions galore. Where is everyone? This is like a finale that's been rained off

 

Rod

[rocketpro]

My thoughts exactly Rod.  A bit disappointing really

[dannytsg]

Just an observation, but it is amazingly quiet on here with just a handful of people posting. This is it guys I expected input from everyone with questions and suggestions galore. Where is everyone? This is like a finale that's been rained off

Rod

It's been like that for a while but it's always good interesting discussion when it comes up