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#1 lukewpc

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Posted 13 November 2015 - 06:34 PM

Hi,

I'm new to this forum and just getting into doing pyro properly, just got a few questions.

From what I can see:

  • I can make up to 100g of explosives but not store it.
  • I can't make an explosive device, but am able to use 100g for experimentation and demonstration (How won't that be an explosive device?)

I can't see how a amateur hobbyist can do anything without breaking these rules. Do most UKPS members just keep it quiet or do a lot of you have licences, which I doubt would be possible with no pyro qualifications and just a shed to manufacture?

 

Without an A+K, can I still legally buy 25 kg of KNO3 as long as i only make 100g of BP at a time and use it before making another batch. Will a garden store be suspicious of buying a sack of Krista K, I don't want the police knocking on my door!

 

Thanks,

Luke



#2 wayne

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Posted 14 November 2015 - 08:13 AM

See:

 

http://www.pyrosocie...ctise-guidance/

 

All your questions will be answered.

 

Generally speaking, you will need and explosive certificate for experimentation.

 

Cheers,

 

Wayne.



#3 lukewpc

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Posted 14 November 2015 - 11:50 AM

So I'll need an explosives certificate to manufacture explosives. Will this allow me to make up to 100g or more? Can BP be stored (up to 10 kg) as shooters powder under ER 2014 exemption 7(2)a(i), or is this just for smokeless? Is there a cost for an acquire certificate?

 

Thanks,

Luke



#4 samboradford

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Posted 14 November 2015 - 01:06 PM

Hi Luke,

 

I will try to reply as best I can, I hope other members will readily correct any errors, but this is the basis to which we as a group should be working.

 

I can very much understand your confusion, to say the least. And it is essential that you get this right.  The general consensus is experimental ( note : experimental ) pyrotechnics is lawful under current legislation but you are extremely limited in what you can do.  I re-emphasize, experimental - this is very different from manufacture which is not covered by the legislation.

 

In the spirit of experimental pyrotechnics you would be permitted to do the following :

 

1) Acquire, including by way of manufacture ( see [2] ) or by procurement, black powder.  In order to acquire you MUST have an acquisition certificate.  You may also store your black powder but you would need an "acquire and keep" certificate for this as opposed to an "acquire only" certificate.  This would allow you to store more than the 100g permitted under an acquire only certificate.  That ONLY applies to black powder. 

2) The amount you can manufacture at any one time for black powder would be 100g under the terms of your acquire only or acquire and keep certificate above ( depending on what you applied for).  It is important that you realise many different methods exist for the production of black powder, some are safer than others, people have been killed doing just that, pyrotechnics by nature is not 100% safe.

3) You may apply, but may not be granted, for the UN - MAN2 designation on a separate "acquire only certificate" if you have an "acquire and keep" or with your "acquire only certificate".  This would allow you to produce any pyrotechnic composition, subject to the regulations, for the purposes of pyrotechnic experimentation / demonstration.  This would, therefore, allow you to produce other compositions that are not based on black powder - for example, Strontium nitrate / parlon / magnalium / red gum for the production of red flame.  The maximum allowable acquisition at any ONE time would be 100g. As this only applies to "acquire only" you would not be allowed to keep this composition and it would need to be used immediately, within practicable reason and within the spirit of the legislation

4) You may assemble a pyrotechnic device up to 100g maximum net explosive content, e.g. a 2 inch shell or a rocket with a small heading given the above, but again, this would class as an unclassified device and so could not be stored - it must be used immediately as above.

 

In order to obtain any of the following pyrotechnic chemicals ( all commonly used substances ) you would need an Explosives and Poisons Precursor License :

 

Potassium Perchlorate

Potassium Chlorate

Barium Chlorate

Barium Nitrate

Sodium Oxalate ( Oxalic acid )

 

It is perfectly legal to buy potassium Nitrate.  Be aware, however, that vendors have a duty to inform of suspicious activity.

 

No matter what legislation you follow, you would be responsible for your actions and any damage to people or property caused by such actions would invariably lead to prosecution.  This is only my summary on things as they stand, it is not my advice that you should necessarily follow this.  I'm hesitating writing this next bit but I feel I must - I have a personal take, which is likely to be inflammatory to many, that the regulations are not actually fit for purpose.  The regulations leave you very open and I feel it won't be until something happens that they will be truly tested, nonetheless it's all many people have, sadly.  You have to consider not only yourself but others and this area is not clear.  I would argue that there should be a clearer code of practice and clear stipulation on the way in which these things are done but the community is understandably concerned that such discussion may eliminate the possibility of experimental pyrotechnics completely.  You have to decide how you feel operating within a framework that is not entirely clear - or at least as clear as it can be.  Personally, I feel the only truly robust way in which this can safely be done is with a manufacturing license and to properly license a facility. However, this is something that is even less easily accessible, highly costly and something that will take me a long time and great expense,  but then it's the passion for the hobby which will drive me on this.

 

I apologise to all if I have in any way spoken out of turn,  It's not intentional.

 

Sam.



#5 maxman

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Posted 14 November 2015 - 02:54 PM

Ohh did I need to put sodium oxalate na2c204 on the licence? I thought it said oxalic acid c2h204
Not quite the same is it? Or have I made a cock up?

Rod

#6 lukewpc

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Posted 14 November 2015 - 04:18 PM

So could I legally, without any licences, make <100g of BP, put it in a rocket and set it off? I think i'll apply for an acquire only anyway. I won't need an EPP yet as I'm perfecting BP rockets first.

This would allow you to store more than the 100g permitted under an acquire only certificate.

Does a acquire only certificate still allow 100g storage?

 

4) You may assemble a pyrotechnic device up to 100g maximum net explosive content, e.g. a 2 inch shell or a rocket with a small heading given the above, but again, this would class as an unclassified device and so could not be stored - it must be used immediately as above.

So does the acquire certificate allow assembly of pyrotechnic devices or is it just for compositions? What differentiates between the storage of homemade pyro devices and consumer fireworks?

 

Thanks so much for your help,

Luke



#7 samboradford

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Posted 14 November 2015 - 04:20 PM

Rod,

 

Sorry my bad,  bad wording - I requested oxalic acid so I could synthesize relevant salts that i didn't have ( and because I have it in store ) - you are right. Sodium Oxalate itself isn't needed on the license. If you PM me, I will send you my EPP list, it's revision 2 !

 

Luke - Acquire only is "acquire only" no keeping ;-) - as for assembly, this is within the regulations.  I'm afraid you need to do a lot of reading, then read it all again and again until you get your head around it.  Then come back to the posts and it will make sense. You absolutely must read the regulations themselves.


Edited by samboradford, 14 November 2015 - 04:24 PM.


#8 maxman

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Posted 14 November 2015 - 05:13 PM

No problem Sam, I just had a quick panic that I'd not covered myself for what I have.

 

Just as a mater of interest will the home office allow to add to the list if required? and how does one request changes? and is there an admin fee for this?

 

Rod



#9 samboradford

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Posted 14 November 2015 - 06:41 PM

Yes they will, I just email them direct to let them know I'm making a change.  Then I fill out the variation form :

 

https://eforms.homeo...d-guidance.ofml

 

there's no fee for this, but you have to send them back your original license.  It took 4 weeks the last time I did this.






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