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How to prepare smoke compositions


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#16 adamw

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Posted 14 November 2005 - 09:37 PM

As Ghost says, you have to use KCLO3 to prevent from burning the dyes (ie they will loose their colour), and almost all coloured smokes use this.
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#17 Richard H

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Posted 14 November 2005 - 10:24 PM

It's not so much that KClO3 compositions burn at lower temperatures, rather that KClO3 decomposes at lower temperatures. A slight but important distinction.

#18 delta_echo

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Posted 14 November 2005 - 11:56 PM

Where did you find the Rhodamine Red for your red smoke? I have alot of difficulty locating just the raw dyes. Thanks.

#19 rooster

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Posted 15 November 2005 - 01:59 PM

Rhodamine B you will have to get from a chemical supplier such as Sigma-Aldrich. I am not sure they will sell the chemicals like this to individuals, as it is kinda special... Carinogenic, but not too malicious.

It is used as a biological staining agent, but I doubt you will find anything OTC if you don't work at a pharmaceutical company.

While it is possible to make inorganic smokes utulizing silicates and other salts(as in one of the BAFN books), the smokes are nothing compared to real inorganic dyes.

I will see if I can find some of my old videos of Rhodamine B. The smoke is really more purplish pink than red. I am anxious to try out para red though, I think it is more signal red.
My candle burns at both ends; It will not last the night; But, ah, my foes, and, oh, my friends - it gives a lovely light.

#20 Ghost_Walker

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Posted 16 November 2005 - 02:22 AM

i thought that i would add that the Smoke Generation Book lists ALOT of Dyes..however most are only available from chemical suppliers in LARGE quantity..like Rhodamine B...Some online retailers sell smoke dyes which are the chemicals from the supplier and they charge a boat load for them...1lb of dye is like 20-30 USD....not sure how to get around the cost

#21 rooster

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Posted 19 November 2005 - 07:36 PM

I found my old smoke composition testing videos, and uploaded them to my old Freepgs account. here

There are videos of red smoke compositions with rhodamine B, different HCE-based smoke compositions in there, sugar/potassium nitrate smokes, a military smoke grenade(HCE-based clearly), and the forum video of roguesci. Enjoy!

Please ask if you have questions.

Edited by rooster, 19 November 2005 - 07:37 PM.

My candle burns at both ends; It will not last the night; But, ah, my foes, and, oh, my friends - it gives a lovely light.

#22 Ghost_Walker

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Posted 28 November 2005 - 06:42 PM

rooster....what was your mixture for your red smoke with rhodamine b?

I'm trying to find a formulation for a tactical smoke mix that has good dense smoke, with good color, dense so it stays low to the ground and doesnt use a chlorate.

Im nervous of using the US military mixture of KCLO3, Sulfur flour, Sodium Bicarbonate, and smoke dye...

I'd like to have something that might have a shelf life of a 6 months or so after i shrink-wrap it to reduce its exposure to air...but i dont want it to explode if stored wrong

what do you think guys...maybe use the mil-smoke formula but make it into a composite using P-Ban?

i came across another formula for a dense bright smoke:

50% smoke dye
25% Potassium Chlorate
14% Asphaltum
8% Powdered (confectioner’s) sugar
3% Baking soda
+3% Dextrin

Make sure all is very fine powder and well mixed.



Put ? of the mixed composition in a plastic bag and add water mixed with 10% denatured alcohol. Add a little at a time and knead to the point you can form a ball that won't crumble. Add the remaining 1/4 of composition and knead more. If it won’t hold together and crumbles, add a couple of drops more water and knead the hell out of it. It's very important that it's not too wet. You can tell if it’s too wet by squeezing a ball of it in your hand. If water comes out between your fingers, it’s too wet. In that case, add more dry comp. Once you have a firm ball, granulate it through a ten mesh screen and let dry. If your comp. is too wet, you will only get a smear on the screen.



I used tubes that had a 2-inch inside dimension (ID), and that were 3" long. I epoxied plywood to one end. Then filled the tubes 3/4 full of the smoke comp. and lightly pressed it down. Then I epoxied plywood to the top, and made a ?-inch hole in the plywood, stuck a fuse in and put a slurry of meal powder around the hole to keep the comp. from falling out and to hold the fuse in. A wad of tissue paper would work just as well. The composition does not require any prime to ignite, just a fuse. For best results, ignite these in sunlight. This formulation burns so cold that you can burn it in a paper cup and only after the smoke stops, does the cup start burning. The dye stains everything it touches, so be careful. You might want to use latex gloves and wear clothes you don’t care about. Orange GoJo hand cleaner gets the dye off your hands nicely.

Edited by Ghost_Walker, 28 November 2005 - 08:35 PM.


#23 rooster

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Posted 29 November 2005 - 05:24 PM

You will not find a good smoke mix that is so dense it will stay on the ground. The only really dense smoke I know of is HC-based smoke(military smoke grenade stuff). This smoke is usually grey or white. If you could somehow have many small tubes of this mixed with many small tubes of colored smoke composition(has to be with chlorate if you want good colours) and small tubes of white HC-smoke inbetween the coloured smoke, you could get a mix that is coloured and dense.

The reason you cannot have the two smoke compositions together, is that HC-type smokes usually contains metals which raise the burning temperature of the composition. The HC composition will be way too hot for the dye to survive if they bur together.

The red smoke composition I used is called pihko red. Its formula is as follows:

Potassium Chlorate - 24
Lactose - 16
Rhodamine B - 40
Sodium Bicarbonate - 4
Dextrin - 2
My candle burns at both ends; It will not last the night; But, ah, my foes, and, oh, my friends - it gives a lovely light.

#24 adamw

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Posted 29 November 2005 - 06:41 PM

What do you mean by 'Tactical Smoke'? I hope we're not aiding you with a psycho one-man army rampage!
75 : 15: 10... Enough said!

#25 sizzle

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Posted 29 November 2005 - 07:46 PM

What do you mean by 'Tactical Smoke'? I hope we're not aiding you with a psycho one-man army rampage!



He could just be using it in an amatuer film you know :D
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#26 Ghost_Walker

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Posted 30 November 2005 - 05:10 PM

nah nothing so extreme guys....i play alot of paintball, and im a mechanical engineer, so i'm developing things for myself when i go play to give me an edge.

as for the amatuer film thing though...i am making a website for the stuff i built with a flash/video intro using my devices so the smoke might be in there

might i also inquire as to where you got your die....i cant find it anywhere...i only find huge chemical suppliers or paint pigment

and i dont think i could use HC smoke in paintball....way too toxic

Edited by Ghost_Walker, 30 November 2005 - 06:35 PM.


#27 rooster

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Posted 30 November 2005 - 08:47 PM

HC smoke is not very toxic. They use it in the military inside buildings(at least we did). It can be a bit irritating, but not very bad. It has been used for military applications for 40 years or so.

I got my dye from a chemicals supplier. It was expensive, but I had the money at the time. I do not have large amounts, only a few hundred grams of each. I have a few different ones.

For paintball, HC smoke will be the only smoke that will do a good job. You will need to do some experimenting on burnrates and stuff though.
My candle burns at both ends; It will not last the night; But, ah, my foes, and, oh, my friends - it gives a lovely light.

#28 adamw

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Posted 30 November 2005 - 08:54 PM

Try KNO3 + Paraffin wax (aka candle wax)

I know it sounds 'kewwwwl' but it does a pretty good job. Better than KNO3 + Sugar in my opinion.
75 : 15: 10... Enough said!

#29 paul

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Posted 30 November 2005 - 09:02 PM

Yes. adamw is right! Had great success with this type, too!

http://gamekeeper.de...rookbommen.html There you can get videos of different smoke devices (yes, I KNOW THAT THERE IS ALOT OF other s**tty stuff too on the site, but the smoke vidoes do a great job to show what composition behaves in what way)

with best regards,

paul


P.S: Unfortunately, the smoke given off by KNO3/S/C is toxic and irritant. It is the best smoke I?ve seen after HC smoke.

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#30 Creepin_pyro

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Posted 01 December 2005 - 10:51 AM

Has anyone tried an Ammonium Chloride/Kcl03 smoke composition?

I've been meaning to for some time now, but never got round to it. I may try the "Rook compositie #3" from the page Paul linked to - are there any special instructions for preparing the composition?




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