104 replies to this topic

[Peret]

I haven't lived in Britain for 18 years so I'm not up to speed on the present situation. Forgive me if I'm asking about something everyone knows, but are the current regulations actually enforced? Do many people get prosecuted for making hobby fireworks? I ask, because from 1685 until the Gunpowder Act** of 1860, Britain had total firework prohibition, yet somehow a cottage industry still thrived more or less openly with only an occasional slap on the wrist. In fact - and here's my point - the Gunpowder Act was passed to legalize manufacture because as long as it was an underground activity, there could be no safety regulation, and there were a lot of accidents. You might try approaching this from the angle that prohibition of anything people really want to do never works, and it would be better from a safety point of view to allow small-scale hobby manufacture in the open where it could be regulated and, if necessary, licensed.

It seems to me there is a window of opportunity open while the new government is in a reforming mood. I hear (from my British friends) a lot of criticism of the Health and Safety Act and the various extensions added during the last decade, and it seems quite likely it will come up for review. It probably wouldn't hurt to have proposals ready.

** Under the 1860 Act, anyone could make and store up to 10 pounds of fireworks at home without a license.

[phildunford]

** Under the 1860 Act, anyone could make and store up to 10 pounds of fireworks at home without a license.

True, but under the 1875 act and forever afterward you can only make firewoks in a licenced factory.

Things have been moving quite fast behind the scenes (last few days) hence not all the committee (including myself) were up to speed. After last night's management meeting, I'm in a position to give you a head's up.

Wayne has been working on the problem for the last two years and has kept the HSE informed of our viewpoint - a slow but worthwhile process.

Within the last couple of days Wayne has joined the ELR (Explosives Legislation Review) group. This is excellent news, because this group will advise on changes in the MSER legislation. It's possible we many get an additional member on this group as well.

Now, we must not expect the impossible and I don't think any of us would like to forcast the end result but having UKPS reps on this committee is a huge step forward.

Brilliant work Wayne, to paraphase Winston, is this the beginning of the end? - No, but it could be the end of the beginning!

Edited by phildunford, 13 May 2010 - 08:41 AM.

[crystal palace fireworks]

Although I definately go along with Peret`s sentiments of "striking while the irons hot",.....I think the reforming of the various HSE acts will only happen if the legal system regarding the compensation culture is altered, and thus the HSE would then hopefully stop living in fear of forever introducing over-the-top legislation,.... or maybe its department will be scrapped altogether under government cut backs

Edited by crystal palace fireworks, 13 May 2010 - 10:01 AM.

[CCH Concepts]

one thing i would like to see brought in, if the reforms members would like do come in is a amateur's pack.

when i first came into pyrotechnics i knew very little, with the Internet being my only resource i found very bad info before i found good, which very quickly resulted in an accident, further research lead me to this forum and well there rest can be seen from my posts.

what i would like to see is a starters pack, similar to what the government already offer for many other hobbies.

listing everything a hobbyist needs to consider for safety ppe, incompatibilities, relevant reading material and a list of accredited resource sites like ukps (that would receive accreditation).

with a min legal age of 18 or 21, this would allow much safer and more responsible hobbyist.

[rocketpro]

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Edited by rocketpro, 06 August 2010 - 09:21 AM.

[digger]

Sadly i have to agree with you.

Don't give up hope. The rocket boys managed to carve out a framework!

[exat808]

I think that there is a mis-understanding of the HSE approach to the current Explosive Legislation Revue (ELR). The main aim is to ensure that by April 2012 that there is an integrated suite of legislation that is fit for purpose. Currently the various Regulations (COER MSER CLER POMSTER et al) and the remnants of the 1875 Act cut across each other in many places ( many unrelated to pyrotechnics). HSE are seeking to rectify these problem areas and additionally to introduce clarity in those areas of legislation where there is currently ambiguity or confusion. An example of this is the much discussed 100gram disapplication found in MSER Reg 9. There is no precise definition or guidance in respect of what can be lawfully achieved under this specific disapplication.

A previous poster has commented that the rocket men have worked with HSE and other enforcing authorities (the Police) and have benefitted from certain exemptions under MSER and COER. This is also true of cavers and divers who gained a disapplication from separation distances for their HE (MSER reg 5 and ACOP refer), and also the shooting community who benefit from reduced fees, and disapplication from separation distances.
These disapplications were not gained easily and any case put forward by the pyrotechnic community must be accompanied by a robust safety case. The absence of this is likley to see any claim for disapplication thrown out at the first hurdle.

Time is very much of the essence in the ELR. I see from ealier posts that Wayne will be leading the UKPS input. As a group you must be able to clearly state your aims in respect of legislation changes - "wish lists" will not work. The hard work will be done at the working group stage of ELR when we ( I am already involved elsewhere) will thrash out the comments and suggestions ( of which there are already many) and put forward the proposals for any legislative ammendments to HSE Explosives Policy who are leading the ELR.

Happy to discuss further - fingers aching now

[pyrotechnist]

I hate the HSE, just my opinion, I think of them as a highly paid wast of money that do nout for our industry bit like the government always do for any industry within Britain. I heard our pyro regs are not far off from that of a Nuclear power plant! now that is just pathetic. Bring back the small manufacturing license then ill be happy, I wish!

[exat808]

I hate the HSE, just my opinion, I think of them as a highly paid wast of money that do nout for our industry bit like the government always do for any industry within Britain. I heard our pyro regs are not far off from that of a Nuclear power plant! now that is just pathetic. Bring back the small manufacturing license then ill be happy, I wish!

The HSE Explosives Inspectorate and the Mines, Quarries and Explosives Policy section are in my view a group of highly motivated professionals. Unfortunately there are not enough staff to do the work that the comes their way. Comparing pyro regs to the nuclear regs is only fair if you have a knowledge of both sets. I dont so therefore I cant comment.

If UKPS want their voice heard in an appropriate manner then you as a group should make the right noises in the right places (see my posting above in this thread)

[martyn]

Exat808 - what you have written makes perfect sense - it is what I wanted to say but am not articulate enough to get across.
I am just an ordinary newish member of the societyand I don't really know what is going on behind the scenes. I am aware tjhat I am relying on others to do the hard work and negotiating for me, but the plain fact is that I don't move in the world of business or negotiations and would be useless at it. What I have done is join the society and suggested what I would like out of the discussions - albeit in the form of a wish list.
One thing I would be prepared to do is pay some money, along with as many other members who could afford to contribute, to perhaps hire the services of a consultant for a day or two, someone like Tom Smith of Davas might or might not be interested / suitable. I recently met him and he didn't seem anti (or pro) hobby pyro. He started at Kimboulton which obviously had it roots in amateur pyrotechnics. You sound very knowledgeable - are you able to help Wayne? Wayne - how are thing going - do you need help? What do others think about paying for some professional help?

[exat808]

I agree with Martyns views and desires for legislation that will be workable and appropriate for those who have pursuits in line with those UKPS members. I would be willing to assist and speak with Wayne ( we have already spoken on legal issues previously), however I cannot speak on behalf of UKPS as a body as I already represent 2 other bodies on the ELR and have to be conscious of the possibility of conflicting professional interests. I would urge UKPS members to aviod where possible the "us and them" mentality, and work with the enforcers to establish if possible some disapplications to regulations that work for you as a body.

[phildunford]

I think it may be as well to remind everyone that although this forum is financed by the UKPS, not all contributers are members and the opinions expressed are not necessarily those of the society.

It has always been our desire to stay within the law and we are keen to work with the HSE and any other bodies in a friendly and positive way.

Getting member(s) on to the decision making bodies proves (I hope) our desire to be contructive and serious in our aims.

[crystal palace fireworks]

In my opinion, unfortunately the HSE is a quangoistic institution that replaces common sense because of our nanny state mentality, by its very nature it also restricts many aspects of the UK economy through ever increasing debilitating legislation to justify its own existence in favour of reacting to our legal & accident claim culture, speak to Ron Lancaster,..he will practically say the same thing!

Having said that, unfortunately we have no choice but to work with them and many other bureaucratic layers that were less restricting many decades ago.

For the UKPS to progress forward, we need to be clear about what we want, where we want to go, and why.

A small affordable manufacturing license that allows hobbyists to practice & manufacture fireworks legally is a must have (I believe a few guys on this forum are working towards this objective = excellent). But equally importantly, we also need to influence legislation that does not restrict UK pyrotechnic manufacturing start-up businesses. We have to convince government that this will in effect benefit the UK economy in the longer term (i.e create wealth and employ people) other than just trying to appease the hobby element. Hopefully some form of direct representation to our new free enterprising government - `secretary of state business minister`(vince cable) will have some effect.

Cost effective insurance premiums is another aspect we should work on and consider in respect to how we achieve the above.

Edited by crystal palace fireworks, 24 June 2010 - 12:03 AM.

[digger]

mmm some interesting comments there. I broadly agree with exat808.

I do not think it is wise to bash the HSE. They are here to stay and that is that.

I have had many dealings with the HSE (refineries). I have to say my main experience has been if you show willing to work with them then there is no problem, after all most are reasonable people trying to do a job. OK they have the power to come down on you like a ton of bricks, but if you are professional you should not have put yourself in that position anyway as anything done will have been well thought out to assess and mitigate the risks.

The best starting point is to have well reasoned achievable plans. I guess this is point that we are getting to now.