I cant see why they wont bring back the small manufacturing license as it was pre-laid out and would do us all fine if not give us a little to much freedom. Dam they could still disallow flash and over highly energetic materials of its sort but allow us to do our hobby or even start a small factory for private use or displays. Again sooner or later pyro will be another industry lost to the shallowness of our so called government much like the cotton industry, coal, steel etc etc and I assume our chemical industry is heading that way.
is this the beginning of the end
Started by martyn, May 10 2010 06:04 PM
104 replies to this topic
#31
pyrotechnist
-
- General Public Members
-
- 1,126 posts
firework making is my aim, setting off is my game
Posted 24 June 2010 - 12:33 AM
fireworks is my aim setting of is the game
#32
digger
-
- UKPS Members
-
- 1,961 posts
Pyro Forum Top Trump!
Posted 24 June 2010 - 08:32 AM
Our industry has been lost to low wage competition and not to regulation. Yes there is a cost to regulation. However you have to remember there is also a transport cost for bringing things from China etc. I would hazard a guess that the cost of regulation per unit is far lower than the extra transport costs incurred from low wage economies.
OK the cost of regulation can be a barrier to entry, however it does not explain why established industries have disappeared. It is ultimately all down to free trade and low wages in developing countries. For example the only reason that the USA have kept their steel industry is down to protectionist policies effectively taxing imports out of the market.
Why don't we do that, well that is a whole other discussion with many points of view. But I do like my cheap TV's Ipods and computers etc.
OK the cost of regulation can be a barrier to entry, however it does not explain why established industries have disappeared. It is ultimately all down to free trade and low wages in developing countries. For example the only reason that the USA have kept their steel industry is down to protectionist policies effectively taxing imports out of the market.
Why don't we do that, well that is a whole other discussion with many points of view. But I do like my cheap TV's Ipods and computers etc.
Phew that was close.
#33
Guest_PyroPDC_*
Guest_PyroPDC_*
-
- Guests
Posted 24 June 2010 - 09:56 AM
regulation in our pyro idustory can pay a very high price as iv found out, a couple of years back i could have got 8" shells easy, due to regulation changes (H&S / EU) China no longer export any higher than 7", one of my wholesalers have giving me a price sheet for there 8" / 10" Spanish shells at nearly £100 / £160 each. 
i personal think bringing in larger shells in pyro mesh could be a option but nobody wants to foot the bill for all the HSE testing and re classification.
im am now trying to get 1.1 storage but iv been advised by the HSE not to do it on my 1.3 storage site as if they don't approve the 1.1 i could lose my 1.3 licence which just sounds silly.
i am all for regulation and doing what needs to be done but i do feel there needs to be a form of give and take on both sides. eg relax the rules for manufacturing in the uk. so therefore we wouldnt need to import large shells.
i personal think bringing in larger shells in pyro mesh could be a option but nobody wants to foot the bill for all the HSE testing and re classification.
im am now trying to get 1.1 storage but iv been advised by the HSE not to do it on my 1.3 storage site as if they don't approve the 1.1 i could lose my 1.3 licence which just sounds silly.
i am all for regulation and doing what needs to be done but i do feel there needs to be a form of give and take on both sides. eg relax the rules for manufacturing in the uk. so therefore we wouldnt need to import large shells.
Edited by PyroPDC, 24 June 2010 - 09:58 AM.
#34
digger
-
- UKPS Members
-
- 1,961 posts
Pyro Forum Top Trump!
Posted 24 June 2010 - 10:09 AM
regulation in our pyro industry can pay a very high price as iv found out, a couple of years back i could have got 8" shells easy, due to regulation changes (H&S / EU) China no longer export any higher than 7", one of my wholesalers have giving me a price sheet for there 8" / 10" Spanish shells at nearly £100 / £160 each.
Yes that is an issue, but that is nothing to do with the UK law. That is international law specifically ADR, and more accurately the cost of shipping insurance and the fact that no-one actually wants to move it around so there are very few ships capable/willing. This obviously leads to a restricted market forcing the prices up.
Hey you never know this may actually work in the favor of UK manufacturing by taking the low wage issue out of the equation.
i personal think bringing in larger shells in pyro mesh could be a option but nobody wants to foot the bill for all the HSE testing and re classification.
Interesting Idea, but i guess the reason that people have not taken up this option is that it could be quite some task to keep an 8" shell in the box in a fire. The packaging may end up costing more than the shell and reducing the number that can be put in a container dramatically. But worth a thought.
im am now trying to get 1.1 storage but iv been advised by the HSE not to do it on my 1.3 storage site as if they don't approve the 1.1 i could lose my 1.3 licence which just sounds silly.
i am all for regulation and doing what needs to be done but i do feel there needs to be a form of give and take on both sides. eg relax the rules for manufacturing in the uk.
Yes that is the case, it has happened to a number of other applicants. They are giving you good advice here. It is ultimately the local planning department that will be the issue and not the HSE. The HSE's rules on this are prescriptive so if you follow the rules to the letter there will not be a problem, however the planning department are driven by personal opinion this is not good. As I am sure you are aware if they decline planning then the odds are they will look at your site and make you clear it.
Phew that was close.
#35
pyrotechnist
-
- General Public Members
-
- 1,126 posts
firework making is my aim, setting off is my game
Posted 24 June 2010 - 11:05 AM
I have read on many occasions and heard that companies, especially larger companies, eliminate a lot of tax and red-tape by using transitional funding (think that's the name anyhow) where they move the money around within the company to their foreign branches to stop taxation and in most cases they get taxed less than a small SME business which is all wrong. Now companies shouldn't be allowed to do this and it should for one be made illegal which will make them employ at least a bit more people within Britain.
Then you have the idiotic government who freely allow imports into this country, I remember reading the articles about the cotton industry when they where crying out for help and fees on imported products to keep them in business and the government ignored them. Now look what has happened hundreds of thousands of jobs have gone from one of our largest industries, well especially where I live and we are in a total mess. Our government want to get rid of what they call 'Dirty jobs' or basically manufacturing jobs in place of services like call centres etc but even call centres are going to places like India. We now dont have much of an IT industry due to most IT businesses using companies like Tara who import Indian IT workers who will work for half the wage that the British worker works for, the governments answer for our all ready qualified workers 'you need more training'. Our industries that have more or less gone:
Cotton
Steel - again the government sold a lot of that off.
Coal
Chemical industry - seems to be shrinking to me, I remember the big ICI plant in north east selling up.
Vehicles - Just recently our government gave the contract for new military vehicles to be made in another country (forgot where), black cabs are also moving its production to China and a lot of our other car manufacturers are gone.
Paper - Most is imported
Food - A lot of food is now imported and farms are closing down left right and centre. Another biggy is the sell out of Cadburry's to America.
Plastics - Seems a lot of plastics are now produced in China.
Electrical goods - Designed in Britain or America etc but produced in China.
Fireworks - Used to employ hundreds per factory but once again due to freely allowing foreign cheap imports most went out of business and that industry has collapsed.
There is probably more that I have not listed but you get the picture. Like all economists say for a country to prosper we need a manufacturing base that equates for half of our economies money input which we simply dont have, our GDP is extremely low compared to what it should be. The government have done nothing but destroy our once beautiful country and for what? Im sure we all know why. I remember the promises the Labour government gave when conservatives where allowing a mass of cheap foreign produce to raid into this country and when Labour was put into power they carried it on and even made it worse and from then on it went down hill.
It may not be the H&S fault but I sure do blame it on our government who can put higher tax on cheap imports and start polling all imports which then will make manufacture within the UK a much more viable option. Lets face it a lot of fireworks we get in Britain from China currently are shit with no inspiration with just the odd few rockets and cakes being good or new!
Ok my rant over with, I love politics lol.
Then you have the idiotic government who freely allow imports into this country, I remember reading the articles about the cotton industry when they where crying out for help and fees on imported products to keep them in business and the government ignored them. Now look what has happened hundreds of thousands of jobs have gone from one of our largest industries, well especially where I live and we are in a total mess. Our government want to get rid of what they call 'Dirty jobs' or basically manufacturing jobs in place of services like call centres etc but even call centres are going to places like India. We now dont have much of an IT industry due to most IT businesses using companies like Tara who import Indian IT workers who will work for half the wage that the British worker works for, the governments answer for our all ready qualified workers 'you need more training'. Our industries that have more or less gone:
Cotton
Steel - again the government sold a lot of that off.
Coal
Chemical industry - seems to be shrinking to me, I remember the big ICI plant in north east selling up.
Vehicles - Just recently our government gave the contract for new military vehicles to be made in another country (forgot where), black cabs are also moving its production to China and a lot of our other car manufacturers are gone.
Paper - Most is imported
Food - A lot of food is now imported and farms are closing down left right and centre. Another biggy is the sell out of Cadburry's to America.
Plastics - Seems a lot of plastics are now produced in China.
Electrical goods - Designed in Britain or America etc but produced in China.
Fireworks - Used to employ hundreds per factory but once again due to freely allowing foreign cheap imports most went out of business and that industry has collapsed.
There is probably more that I have not listed but you get the picture. Like all economists say for a country to prosper we need a manufacturing base that equates for half of our economies money input which we simply dont have, our GDP is extremely low compared to what it should be. The government have done nothing but destroy our once beautiful country and for what? Im sure we all know why. I remember the promises the Labour government gave when conservatives where allowing a mass of cheap foreign produce to raid into this country and when Labour was put into power they carried it on and even made it worse and from then on it went down hill.
It may not be the H&S fault but I sure do blame it on our government who can put higher tax on cheap imports and start polling all imports which then will make manufacture within the UK a much more viable option. Lets face it a lot of fireworks we get in Britain from China currently are shit with no inspiration with just the odd few rockets and cakes being good or new!
Ok my rant over with, I love politics lol.
fireworks is my aim setting of is the game
#36
digger
-
- UKPS Members
-
- 1,961 posts
Pyro Forum Top Trump!
Posted 24 June 2010 - 11:21 AM
Wow.
mmm I do not believe that industry should be protected for the sake of it. The reason we were so successful in the past was due to revolutionary technologies replacing what had come before.
There should have been more emphasis on Science, technology and engineering in schools over the last couple of decades (I know it is changing now). I am an Engineer, it is not an easy option, a hard degree compared to most of them out there. We are now in the situation where there simply aren't enough skilled engineers to fill the vacancies. We have been advertising for a control and instrumentation engineer for 2 years now and the only few that had the skills turned us down when they heard the salary. Believe me we are not talking minimum wage here it was a significant wage.
I am all for free trade. Let someone else to the donkey work. Lets concentrate on innovation and future technologies. It is the only way to stay ahead of the game. Simply putting up barriers destroys the export market making your own citizens the only market.
Don't get me wrong strategic industries could do with some protection in the interests of national security.
Going back to the Victorians this is how they were successful using technology to be more productive with better products and then export them to the Empire. They did not have to rely on punitive trade restrictions.
If we closed ourselves off, industry would die anyway, as the market would get saturated.
A rather simplistic view, but there you go.
mmm I do not believe that industry should be protected for the sake of it. The reason we were so successful in the past was due to revolutionary technologies replacing what had come before.
There should have been more emphasis on Science, technology and engineering in schools over the last couple of decades (I know it is changing now). I am an Engineer, it is not an easy option, a hard degree compared to most of them out there. We are now in the situation where there simply aren't enough skilled engineers to fill the vacancies. We have been advertising for a control and instrumentation engineer for 2 years now and the only few that had the skills turned us down when they heard the salary. Believe me we are not talking minimum wage here it was a significant wage.
I am all for free trade. Let someone else to the donkey work. Lets concentrate on innovation and future technologies. It is the only way to stay ahead of the game. Simply putting up barriers destroys the export market making your own citizens the only market.
Don't get me wrong strategic industries could do with some protection in the interests of national security.
Going back to the Victorians this is how they were successful using technology to be more productive with better products and then export them to the Empire. They did not have to rely on punitive trade restrictions.
If we closed ourselves off, industry would die anyway, as the market would get saturated.
A rather simplistic view, but there you go.
Edited by digger, 24 June 2010 - 11:22 AM.
Phew that was close.
#37
digger
-
- UKPS Members
-
- 1,961 posts
Pyro Forum Top Trump!
Posted 24 June 2010 - 11:33 AM
P.S.
I think that this has gone a little from the scope of this thread. It should now go under a new heading in the general section.
I think that this has gone a little from the scope of this thread. It should now go under a new heading in the general section.
Phew that was close.
#38
pyrotechnist
-
- General Public Members
-
- 1,126 posts
firework making is my aim, setting off is my game
Posted 24 June 2010 - 11:44 AM
Where has my post just disapeared to
fireworks is my aim setting of is the game
#39
pyrotechnist
-
- General Public Members
-
- 1,126 posts
firework making is my aim, setting off is my game
Posted 24 June 2010 - 11:54 AM
Anyhow it just said that:
We dont need to be isolated I agree but we do need higher taxation on imported products and importation polls, exports should be allowed to freely go as normal. We also need more investment into sciense, technology, engineering etc like you said but the government just dont seem to be putting any effort into doing this at all! Our country needs a manufacturing base and I do not agree with using foreign workers to fill jobs that British workers can do but cant because they are either taken up or moved abroad. We have workers who are laid off all the time because of our failing industries and the use of cheap labour. Our education also needs to be more practical and better as currently it is crap and failing miserably.
We are constantly giving money to other countries and even China! while letting our country rot to pieces which is just not right. Like many upon many economists have said for a country to prosper we need manufacturing otherwise we will get no where as currently what does Britain offer that is valuable for other to buy or invest in? we are a failing economy and we are getting worse day by day.
O well that is just my two cents, anyhow all in all we need to get back to the original post about our friendly bunch H&S
. Lets hope we can soon bring back some sort of small license for amateurs and even people who want to make small or medium firework businesses for pro display or effects.
We dont need to be isolated I agree but we do need higher taxation on imported products and importation polls, exports should be allowed to freely go as normal. We also need more investment into sciense, technology, engineering etc like you said but the government just dont seem to be putting any effort into doing this at all! Our country needs a manufacturing base and I do not agree with using foreign workers to fill jobs that British workers can do but cant because they are either taken up or moved abroad. We have workers who are laid off all the time because of our failing industries and the use of cheap labour. Our education also needs to be more practical and better as currently it is crap and failing miserably.
We are constantly giving money to other countries and even China! while letting our country rot to pieces which is just not right. Like many upon many economists have said for a country to prosper we need manufacturing otherwise we will get no where as currently what does Britain offer that is valuable for other to buy or invest in? we are a failing economy and we are getting worse day by day.
O well that is just my two cents, anyhow all in all we need to get back to the original post about our friendly bunch H&S
. Lets hope we can soon bring back some sort of small license for amateurs and even people who want to make small or medium firework businesses for pro display or effects.
fireworks is my aim setting of is the game
#40
digger
-
- UKPS Members
-
- 1,961 posts
Pyro Forum Top Trump!
Posted 24 June 2010 - 12:12 PM
we do need higher taxation on imported products and importation polls, exports should be allowed to freely go as normal.
It is not that simple. You put high tax on imports. Then so does everyone else so it stifles trade (exports). The consumer ends up being the loser
Phew that was close.
#41
pyrotechnist
-
- General Public Members
-
- 1,126 posts
firework making is my aim, setting off is my game
Posted 24 June 2010 - 03:24 PM
We are still the losers now as we just dont have the work to support us in this dying country that once used to be great.
fireworks is my aim setting of is the game
#42
martyn
-
- UKPS Members
-
- 470 posts
Pyro Forum Regular
Posted 24 June 2010 - 04:19 PM
P.S.
I think that this has gone a little from the scope of this thread. It should now go under a new heading in the general section.
Just to hopefully get this back on track
What do other people think about paying for professional help in preparing / presenting our case.
This is the whole future of our hobby and the upcoming review will be our best / ? only chance to have a say.
For all I know there may be experts within the society working behind the scenes, but if not I feel that this is just too an important opportunity to get wrong.
I am not rich ( I work for the NHS so I will be getting poorer!) - but I can afford to bung in 50 quid, if 20 or 30 others did the same would taht be enough to pay for a few days expertise?
Anyone know any friendly MP's - is R.L.'s son still one - would he be sympathetic?
It seems to me that as soon as we start to talk about getting legal we very quickly get side tracked into everything else that is wrong with the country and how awful the HSE and other regulatory bodies are.
(OK they might be in some instances, usually because their hands are tied, but we do need to work with them, and this review might lead to their hands being loosened a little.)
I feel we should lose the negative and confrontational attitude and replace it with one of positivity and cooperation - but then again I am a hoplessly naive optimist.
Wayne - I don't know you and this is not to belittle your efforts, I am sure you are on top of whatever needs to be done, the professional help would be to steer you if required, reinforce your work, and give it the final polish.
#43
pyrotechnist
-
- General Public Members
-
- 1,126 posts
firework making is my aim, setting off is my game
Posted 24 June 2010 - 04:50 PM
I really hope we can come to an arrangement with them or try to get back the small manufacturing license which would be excellent for SME firework companies or just for hobby work. That law was pre-made and researched but not many used it and so it was scrapped, if only we could get it back.
fireworks is my aim setting of is the game
#44
digger
-
- UKPS Members
-
- 1,961 posts
Pyro Forum Top Trump!
Posted 24 June 2010 - 05:14 PM
I feel we should lose the negative and confrontational attitude and replace it with one of positivity and cooperation - but then again I am a hoplessly naive optimist.
Completely agree it is absolutely essential, we need a proffesional united front. I personally would not mind a little more regulation if it meant that it was available to Joe Public within the right well laid out prescriptive framework, which was easy to follow, relatively cheap (I don't expect it to be free as it will have to be administered).
Phew that was close.
#45
crystal palace fireworks
-
- General Public Members
-
- 950 posts
Keith
Posted 24 June 2010 - 05:37 PM
Just to hopefully get this back on track
What do other people think about paying for professional help in preparing / presenting our case.
This is the whole future of our hobby and the upcoming review will be our best / ? only chance to have a say.
For all I know there may be experts within the society working behind the scenes, but if not I feel that this is just too an important opportunity to get wrong.
I am not rich ( I work for the NHS so I will be getting poorer!) - but I can afford to bung in 50 quid, if 20 or 30 others did the same would taht be enough to pay for a few days expertise?
Anyone know any friendly MP's - is R.L.'s son still one - would he be sympathetic?
It seems to me that as soon as we start to talk about getting legal we very quickly get side tracked into everything else that is wrong with the country and how awful the HSE and other regulatory bodies are.
(OK they might be in some instances, usually because their hands are tied, but we do need to work with them, and this review might lead to their hands being loosened a little.)
I feel we should lose the negative and confrontational attitude and replace it with one of positivity and cooperation - but then again I am a hoplessly naive optimist.
Wayne - I don't know you and this is not to belittle your efforts, I am sure you are on top of whatever needs to be done, the professional help would be to steer you if required, reinforce your work, and give it the final polish.
I don`t mind contributing a few quid to a fund that will hire a professional to prepare our case for a small manufacturing license, but first we need to outline, agree, and vote on the finer details of what is acceptable for all concerned.
0 user(s) are reading this topic
0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users
