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Coloured smoke (Red)


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#1 Farnet

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Posted 07 June 2011 - 03:49 PM

Hey Guys,

Sorry for being offline for a few months, the employment axe man arriveth and I along with many others were given our marching orders, so I have spend the last couple of months in the garden building and renovating.

Well, since Northwest Leicestershire seems to be under a deluge today I though I would try out some of the keystone colours that were kindly given to me by one of their managers, the formula I used was thus;

Pot Chlorate 30%

red Dye 30%

Dextrose 40%

I used a large diameter cardboard tube and all went well at first but my instinct told me that the cardboard was providing unneccessary fuel and instead of smoke I was getting a flame (see the you tube vid below)



Am I correct, and if so I assume I need to use a flame retardant on the tube first?

How is everyone anyway :-) ?

Farnet
Everything is poisonous if taken in the extreme.

Take time for example, have too much of it and you will eventually die....

#2 Farnet

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Posted 07 June 2011 - 03:53 PM

btw that was a great light in sky between showers, just in case you are wondering where the rain was in the video
Everything is poisonous if taken in the extreme.

Take time for example, have too much of it and you will eventually die....

#3 Mortartube

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Posted 07 June 2011 - 04:08 PM

Did you press the comp or just pour it into the tube? Ideally it should be pressed with a small core a little way into the centre of the comp.

The tube should have a fairly thick wall, and a hardboard lid with a hole about 1/3rd of the tube I.D would prob help too. 3" Card mortar tube cut to length is ideal.

If you take away the striker mechanism from this diagram, it should be clear what I mean,

http://www.hnsa.org/.../img/fig058.jpg
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#4 Farnet

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Posted 07 June 2011 - 04:24 PM

Hi Moratube,

I did press it in quite hard, and had a small core with visco in it as the ignition, the only thing I didn't do was cap it, that would be VERY interesting..

Farnet
Everything is poisonous if taken in the extreme.

Take time for example, have too much of it and you will eventually die....

#5 crystal palace fireworks

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Posted 07 June 2011 - 05:40 PM

Hey Farnet,

Sorry to hear about your employment situation, BTW nice vivid red smoke there mate!

Question; What sort of red dye was used? or is there a particular dye one should use?

#6 dave

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Posted 07 June 2011 - 05:45 PM

hi,

the flaming is nothing to do with the use of cardboard..
what you need is a "baffle", basically an air space above the composition to allow the smoke to cool before exiting the hole in the end cap
(which you did not have).

previous poster are right about pressing with a central core, also helps cool the smoke before emission and increases the surface ara for burn,
thus increasing emmision rate.

dave

#7 Farnet

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Posted 07 June 2011 - 06:56 PM

Thanks Dave, that has given me something to design tomorrow, for these type of pyros I have bought a stock load of poster tubes and they seem to work perfectly (I have even used them to make BP pucks, by rolling kraft paper around the and cutting them to size, worked perfectly)

Crystal Palace - I contacted keystone directly and one of the managers there was very helpful and sent me 500g of each red, yellow and blue dyes to try out, if you want to order from there I will send you his name through a PM as he took time to help me out and I don't want to subject him to 100's of cold callers on an open forum, also the minimum order is £100.00.

this is the link for all the colours available, I and using Red 9 Mild, I was advised not to bother with the defense standard of each colour.

http://www.dyes.com/...ColorChart.html
Everything is poisonous if taken in the extreme.

Take time for example, have too much of it and you will eventually die....

#8 crystal palace fireworks

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Posted 07 June 2011 - 08:14 PM

Thanks Dave, that has given me something to design tomorrow, for these type of pyros I have bought a stock load of poster tubes and they seem to work perfectly (I have even used them to make BP pucks, by rolling kraft paper around the and cutting them to size, worked perfectly)

Crystal Palace - I contacted keystone directly and one of the managers there was very helpful and sent me 500g of each red, yellow and blue dyes to try out, if you want to order from there I will send you his name through a PM as he took time to help me out and I don't want to subject him to 100's of cold callers on an open forum, also the minimum order is £100.00.

this is the link for all the colours available, I and using Red 9 Mild, I was advised not to bother with the defense standard of each colour.

http://www.dyes.com/...ColorChart.html


Thanks for the website Farnet,

I won`t order or cold call, but if I ever do I will PM you,..... Im just curious as to the smoke dyes properties in terms of broader applications or wether they are specific to pyro.

#9 dave

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Posted 07 June 2011 - 09:43 PM

Thanks for the website Farnet,

I won`t order or cold call, but if I ever do I will PM you,..... Im just curious as to the smoke dyes properties in terms of broader applications or wether they are specific to pyro.


most of th dyes are solvent dyes, so will dissolve in various solvents and paraffin wax (for coloured candles)

some of the colours are more heat stable than others...the smoke will start off ok with good colour
and then fade as the burn progresses. This is due to the smoke having to pass through too much hot ash
before being emmitted.

proper design with a central cavity, to reduce the ash path will help.

i find the generic dye chlorate sugar ratio to be ~ 45 25 25 with 5% mag carbonate
or 45 30 20 5 to work ok.

solvent red 111 seems good with no fading
solvent blues can fade if not desgned properly.

solvent yellow 33 seems better than 93

dave

#10 crystal palace fireworks

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Posted 08 June 2011 - 05:49 AM

[quote name='dave' timestamp='1307483028' post='73398']
most of th dyes are solvent dyes, so will dissolve in various solvents and paraffin wax (for coloured candles)

some of the colours are more heat stable than others...the smoke will start off ok with good colour
and then fade as the burn progresses. This is due to the smoke having to pass through too much hot ash
before being emmitted.

proper design with a central cavity, to reduce the ash path will help.

i find the generic dye chlorate sugar ratio to be ~ 45 25 25 with 5% mag carbonate
or 45 30 20 5 to work ok.

solvent red 111 seems good with no fading
solvent blues can fade if not desgned properly.

solvent yellow 33 seems better than 93

dave

Interesting, thanks for the info Dave!

#11 parabolic

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Posted 08 June 2011 - 02:37 PM

farnet,

nice red colour..

from what I have read and after taking apart some commercial signal distress day smokes, I see that the exit exhaust for the smoke device has to be a choked design. the mixture when lit has to smulder gently and not burn. you may have to experiment with different exhaust holes sizes to see what works best.

it's also interesting that you are using dextros. I have only read that Lactose is the main fuel.

all the best

Lee

#12 Farnet

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Posted 08 June 2011 - 04:47 PM

Hi Parabolic,

Thanks also for the info, I was going to play today but the weather made it prohibitive.

The reason for Dextrose was twofold, The guy from Keystone recommended it, and I had 50kg delivered a while back for brewing which was a major over purchase (which isn't unusual).... :-)

If I was holy, I would be praying tonight for a dry day tomorrow.
Everything is poisonous if taken in the extreme.

Take time for example, have too much of it and you will eventually die....

#13 Farnet

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Posted 08 June 2011 - 04:53 PM

Oh, I have had a reply from Keystone today asking me a question.......

This is what was asked;

Do you think you or any other members of the pyro society may be able to make coloured smoke bombs for the paint ball people , as I am constantly being asked for dye for this application and I am concerned that the people concerned are not aware of the risks involved in the manufacture .

From my previous comments I can confirm that I can't yet say I'm experienced enough in making these things to provide advice / devices to others (plus I have a feeling there would be a trading standard / QA issue there somewhere), is there anyone here that would be knowledgable enough in regards to this to help out?

Farnet
Everything is poisonous if taken in the extreme.

Take time for example, have too much of it and you will eventually die....

#14 digger

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Posted 08 June 2011 - 05:16 PM

Oh, I have had a reply from Keystone today asking me a question.......

This is what was asked;

Do you think you or any other members of the pyro society may be able to make coloured smoke bombs for the paint ball people , as I am constantly being asked for dye for this application and I am concerned that the people concerned are not aware of the risks involved in the manufacture .

From my previous comments I can confirm that I can't yet say I'm experienced enough in making these things to provide advice / devices to others (plus I have a feeling there would be a trading standard / QA issue there somewhere), is there anyone here that would be knowledgable enough in regards to this to help out?

Farnet


There would be several issues on this front.

Making these as experimental devices for use at the place of manufacture (less than 100 grams of composition) may or may not be legal. You can currently make the composition up to the 100g experimental limit. However packing it into a tube may or may not be legal, please read the legal section to see what the pyro society are doing to clarify the legislation on this point.

Regarding manufacture for use in paint ball, ermmm welllll. This would only be legal if you did the following:-

1.) Found suitable land for a manufacturing site.
2.) Applied for a MSER manufacturing license.
3.) went through the ascent process for the license to be approved.
4.) Gain planning permission from the local authority for an explosives manufacturing site.
5.) Develop your devices and prove they are safe.
6.) Develop a packaging scheme in conjunction with one of the box manufactures.
7.) Make some dummies and pack the proposed boxes and have them sent away for testing to make sure they meet the regulations.
8.) Classify the units and packaging for transport by road this may mean 6a, 6b and 6c testing (underground initiation, stacked box initiation and bonfire testing). There are standards for this testing laid out in the UN regulations.

This is not an exhaustive list. However all of these steps and possibly more would need to be completed. So it would probably cost you in excess of £30K to get this going if you can get past point 4 (assuming a cheap piece of land).

Cheers

G

Edited by digger, 08 June 2011 - 05:19 PM.

Phew that was close.

#15 Vic

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Posted 08 June 2011 - 05:39 PM

That is the nice thing about amateur pyrotechnics you can make prototypes that would cost many thousands to develop in the commercial world,
we do it all for very little cost and just for fun.
Freud. Artists, in this view, are people who may avoid neurosis and perversion by sublimating their impulses in their work.




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