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Black powder alternatives?


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#1 dr thrust

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Posted 02 June 2014 - 10:35 PM

Just a simple question... Lol
With the great news that amateur pyrotechnic experimentation is going to to be legal, but one will need a licence for black powder coer3? And righty so
My question is what key elements would be needed to change the 75,15,10 mix so that it wouldn't be classed as black powder anymore, ie use barium nitrate instead of kn03' ect?

#2 maxman

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Posted 03 June 2014 - 07:34 AM

Interesting question Chris. As far as I understand the definition of BP is an intimate mixture of potassium nitrate with a carbon fuel with or without sulphur. Or using sodium nitrate and I think I read ammonium but I'm sure others will correct me. No mention of barium nitrate I don't think. Also it is still BP if it is 60.30.10 or 44.44.9 tigertail  isn't  it? I suspect then using barium nitrate would fall under the 100g exemption.

 

Also what I am unclear on and I know the guidance is due out to explain but its just a question swishing round my head. BP on an acquire and keep is un 0027 0028 so when is blackpowder not blackpowder?  Is it BP by the definition above?( chems used ) or is it then not BP because it hasn't got that UN number? Is the UN number just for transport? So 100g can be made then stored and another 100g made and stored upto 10kg exemption? but it can't be transported as can un0027 un0028

 

By the way Chris what is your thinking behind your question?

 

Rod


Edited by maxman, 03 June 2014 - 08:07 AM.


#3 dr thrust

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Posted 03 June 2014 - 04:16 PM

hey Rod!, my thinking behind the question :  I don't know yet if I want to apply for a acquire and keep, for bp under the pretence of small scale pyro experiments, when it may be possible to cobble something else together to do the job, ( mostly rocket propellants , I've built perchlorate/ carbon fuelled motors before)  

 

just looking for a clear definition on the matter so if its an  intimate mixture of potassium nitrate with a carbon fuel with or without sulphur, and I  change the oxidiser and its ok? lol

it would be interesting to know how far you have to drift away from standard bp formula before it stops being bp! 



#4 wayne

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Posted 04 June 2014 - 09:26 AM

hey Rod!, my thinking behind the question :  I don't know yet if I want to apply for a acquire and keep, for bp under the pretence of small scale pyro experiments, when it may be possible to cobble something else together to do the job, ( mostly rocket propellants , I've built perchlorate/ carbon fuelled motors before)  

 

just looking for a clear definition on the matter so if its an  intimate mixture of potassium nitrate with a carbon fuel with or without sulphur, and I  change the oxidiser and its ok? lol

it would be interesting to know how far you have to drift away from standard bp formula before it stops being bp! 

 

For the sake of applying for a free COER license, is there a real need to "cobble something together"?  I still can't understand why people have an aversion to doing things the right way rather than trying to find loop holes.

 

In response to your question, my understanding is that any composition that contains KNO3, C, & S, could be classed as BP.  So, technically a charcoal star could be classed as weak BP.

 

Also, don't forget that "Flash powder" is soon to be controlled under COER also.

 

Do the right thing and just apply for COER! 



#5 dr thrust

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Posted 04 June 2014 - 04:52 PM

fair enough, if other people apply and get one for experimental pyro, then I will to, or stick to whistle motors :)


Edited by dr thrust, 04 June 2014 - 04:58 PM.


#6 maxman

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Posted 04 June 2014 - 05:15 PM

I might be dim but I don't get COER schedule 1 (yes I know its going to be changed to something in ER2014) but things not on the list we need A&K correct? so BP cert is needed yes? Flash at the moment IS on the list so no cert needed correct? Flash comes off the list so cert required yes? So where is the mention of whistle? It is not on schedule 1 is it? nor colour gerb comps, so if its not on why don't we need A&K?

 

I hope I've written that in an understandable way.

 

Rod



#7 fruitfulsteve

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Posted 04 June 2014 - 07:51 PM

Wat Wayne said !!!

 

Just get a COER certificate, they don't want to pull out any of ya teeth, they don't even cost anything. Well maybe a bit of time to build a wooden box !!


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#8 starseeker

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Posted 04 June 2014 - 07:57 PM

I believe that B.P is classed as a intimate mix of oxidiser and charcoal with or without sulphur.



#9 wayne

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Posted 04 June 2014 - 07:58 PM

I might be dim but I don't get COER schedule 1 (yes I know its going to be changed to something in ER2014) but things not on the list we need A&K correct? so BP cert is needed yes? Flash at the moment IS on the list so no cert needed correct? Flash comes off the list so cert required yes? So where is the mention of whistle? It is not on schedule 1 is it? nor colour gerb comps, so if its not on why don't we need A&K?

 

I hope I've written that in an understandable way.

 

Rod

 

Don't be apprehensive about applying for a COER certificate (unless you've got a dodgy past!).  I've spent 6 years doing the hard work to get us in a position where experimental pyro is recognised by the authorities, so you have nothing at all to worry about.  Applying for COER actually demonstrates that you're trying to do the right thing.  Police/HSE/Home office are a whole lot less scary and more helpful than most perceive them to be!

 

Cheers,

 

Wayne.


Edited by wayne, 04 June 2014 - 07:58 PM.


#10 maxman

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Posted 04 June 2014 - 09:07 PM

I agree Wayne! and any answers to my above questions would be appreciated

 

Rod



#11 fruitfulsteve

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Posted 04 June 2014 - 10:32 PM

We actually discussed this for most of tonight's phone meeting. Mainly with regards to A&K for flash, especially with regards to storage. Surely you won't be allowed to store it with your BP under the stairs !! :o

 

I suppose we'll just have to wait and see if these things have been taken into account when the new regs are published.


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#12 Rip Rap

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Posted 05 June 2014 - 04:50 PM

 

 

Surely you won't be allowed to store it with your BP under the stairs !!  :o

 

You cant store B.P. under your stairs! Or any other means of access or escape. ;)


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#13 fruitfulsteve

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Posted 05 June 2014 - 08:45 PM

You cant store B.P. under your stairs! Or any other means of access or escape. ;)

 

You sure ?


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#14 martyn

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Posted 05 June 2014 - 10:02 PM

Yep - from the acop:

 

420 The box must not be located:
(a.) under or near any means of access or escape, for example under stairs;
(b.)in the same room as flammable liquids; or
(c.) in areas where there are risks of fire.


Edited by martyn, 05 June 2014 - 10:04 PM.


#15 fruitfulsteve

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Posted 05 June 2014 - 11:21 PM

I can't seem to find that by searching their web page.

 

I was told under the stairs in a partitioned wooden box which is chained to a wall ???


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