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Black powder alternatives?


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#16 fruitfulsteve

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Posted 05 June 2014 - 11:32 PM

Found it, on a gun club site.

 

It is dated 2005 thou.


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#17 digger

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Posted 06 June 2014 - 09:13 AM

I can't seem to find that by searching their web page.

 

I was told under the stairs in a partitioned wooden box which is chained to a wall ???

 

As martyn says, it is in the MSER 2005 ACOP page 97 item 420.

 

If you don't have a copy it can be downloaded from the HSE website here http://www.hse.gov.u...priced/l139.pdf


Phew that was close.

#18 Malcolm Smith

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Posted 06 June 2014 - 11:13 AM

Research Report RR991

http://www.hse.gov.u...rrpdf/rr991.pdf

 

The research has demonstrated that a mass explosion of the contents of a box containing up to 25 x 1 kg bottles of blackpowder does not occur when subjected to an external fire but generally proceeds by sequential ignition of the bottles over a period of between 6 and 24 seconds.

 

The fire resistance times for the box design are in excess of 8 minutes. 

 

During the studies it was noted that, occasionally, full bottles of blackpowder were ejected from the box when other adjacent bottles ignited and that these full bottles were propelled up to 5 m from the box.

 

It is considered that in the event of an incident involving a fire, ejected bottles would pose a hazard to the emergency services either by immediate interaction of the bottle and contents with other fires within the area or via cookoff if no direct flame contact occurred.


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#19 fruitfulsteve

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Posted 06 June 2014 - 11:59 AM

I did find it.

 

Just wondering if they have changed the guidelines, someone once told me the under the stairs location was to make it easier to grab the box on the way out in the event of a fire, although chaining it to a wall would somewhat hamper this !!!

 

I have email my firearms liaison officer and asked him to clarify.


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#20 digger

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Posted 06 June 2014 - 01:49 PM

No rule change as far as I am aware. I think the mistake comes from glib statements by people who say it is so lax you can just chuck it under your stairs.


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#21 fruitfulsteve

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Posted 06 June 2014 - 03:27 PM

Good point, maybe my firearms officer thought i was joking when i suggested under the stairs :o


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#22 Sparky

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Posted 06 June 2014 - 07:46 PM

When you apply you will get a nice chap from the local Police Firearms team come and see you and can advise you on a good spot. Last time I applied it was for BP I could use for ejection charges for hobby rockets and also for the larger HP rocket motors.

It was rather amusing because he soon realised that all I wanted was a few grams at a time and the acquire and keep allowed me to have 15kg I think IIRC.

 

All you needed was a wood lined metal box, I have a good ammo box which I bolted to the floor in the outside cupboardy thing which was locked and was part of the building structure. He didn't seem at all concerned it was by the front door as I could evacuate from the back if necessary.

 

They will have absolutely no concerns about giving you a license once this all gets sorted. In my experience they like that people can legally do this, they only want to know who they are just in case.



#23 martyn

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Posted 06 June 2014 - 09:15 PM

.......

 

All you needed was a wood lined metal box, I have a good ammo box which I bolted to the floor ....

From ACOP 415:

 

415 Metal boxes, including ammunition boxes, are not suitable and must not be used. This is because, firstly while metal is fire resistant it also transmits heat very well and secondly, because the metal container adds additional containment that significantly increases the explosive power of the powder. It should be noted that the requirements in this paragraph replace guidance permitting the keeping of black powder in a lacquered or tinned iron or steel trunk or box contained in A guide to the Control of Explosives Regulations 1991.46

 

Seems like there is a lot of inconsistency in hoe the elo's interpret the requirements then.

 


Edited by martyn, 06 June 2014 - 09:18 PM.


#24 fruitfulsteve

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Posted 06 June 2014 - 09:31 PM

I was thinking the same thing but i suppose from an individuals point it will be the ELO that will be doing the home visits/inspections.


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#25 Crazy Cat

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Posted 10 June 2014 - 02:51 AM

Attached files on gunpowder formulations.

Attached Files


 

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#26 martyn

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Posted 11 June 2014 - 10:28 AM

Crazy cat - if 'gunpowder formulations.pdf' is your own work, would you mine changing the ratio in the first box on the first page to read correctly - I suspect it's a typo but someone new might come along in the future and take it as gospel.

Cheers :)

PS I didn't know sulphur acted as a binder and added energy - I was under the impression it mainly lowered the ignition temp and had a slight fuel value - but I am not a chemist and very much out of my depth with the chemistry of reactions.



#27 digger

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Posted 11 June 2014 - 12:57 PM

Crazy cat - if 'gunpowder formulations.pdf' is your own work, would you mine changing the ratio in the first box on the first page to read correctly - I suspect it's a typo but someone new might come along in the future and take it as gospel.

Cheers :)

PS I didn't know sulphur acted as a binder and added energy - I was under the impression it mainly lowered the ignition temp and had a slight fuel value - but I am not a chemist and very much out of my depth with the chemistry of reactions.

I agree sulphur does reduce ignition temperature, which is why it is usefull, given sulhurless powder is of a similar speed.

 

With respect to energy, the heat of formation of CO2 is about -390 KJ/mol and for SO2 is -295 KJ/mol and given the ratio of the molecular masses at 1.45 ish then the relative energy released by SO2 formation is about 52% that of CO2 on a mass basis.

 

Hope this helps


Edited by digger, 11 June 2014 - 12:58 PM.

Phew that was close.

#28 martyn

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Posted 11 June 2014 - 01:44 PM

Thank you.

It doesn't at the moment -but it probably will after I've re-read it about ten times :unsure: :)


Edited by martyn, 11 June 2014 - 01:44 PM.


#29 digger

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Posted 11 June 2014 - 07:23 PM

My post may be slightly misleading, as the thing to do is look at all of the heats of formation of both the starting materials and all of the finished material to see the true difference. For example I have checked H2S and this has a very low heat of formation (minus numbers are heat evolved and positive numbers are heats absorbed to produce the products),


Edited by digger, 11 June 2014 - 07:24 PM.

Phew that was close.

#30 Arthur Brown

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Posted 11 June 2014 - 07:48 PM

BP storage when discussed at ORDCON a while ago was suggested to be a standard wooden box (18mm ply with six bottle spaces and an unfastened flap lid).  This inside a cage of steel bars, this inside a plastic garden storage container.

 

This being to secure the contents from the weather (Plastic box that would melt in an accident)

Secure the contents against theft, ( prison bar type assembly that would let flames out.)

Separate the bottles in the event of a fire using the 18mm ply box that the regs have favoured for a while.

 

This arrangement being considered suitable for a full HT1 store for BP not just the "inside the home" small store.


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