26 replies to this topic

[fruitfulsteve]

So has the bit about 100g for educational, experimental and demonstration purposes been removed from MSER for the 2014 version ?

[martyn]

It's worth getting the wording correct.

...laboratory analysis, testing, demonstration or experimentation (but not for practical use or supply).

 

I think you are only considering manufacture, which indeed allows up to 100g of any explosive.

But you also need to consider acquisition, section 2.5.1

 

Authorisation to acquire or acquire and keep explosives

5.  (1)  Subject to paragraph (3), no person may acquire any explosives unless—

(a)that person has a valid explosives certificate certifying that person to be a fit person to acquire explosives;

(b)that person acquires no more explosives than any quantity referred to in the explosives certificate;

©where the explosives certificate specifies the description of explosives which that person is a fit person to acquire, that person acquires only explosives of that description; and

(d)where the explosives certificate specifies purposes for which that person is a fit person to acquire explosives, that person acquires them only for those purposes.

(2) Subject to paragraph (3), no person may keep explosives unless that person—

(a)has a valid explosives certificate certifying that person to be a fit person to keep explosives;

(b)keeps no more explosives than the quantity referred to in the explosives certificate;

©where the explosives certificate specifies the description of explosives which that person is a fit person to keep, keeps only explosives of that description; and

(d)keeps them at any place specified in the explosives certificate.

(3) Paragraphs (1) and (2) do not apply to —

(a)the explosives as referred to in Schedule 2;

(b)pyrotechnic articles apart from those as referred to in Schedule 3; or

©ammunition the acquisition of which is regulated or prohibited by virtue of the Firearms Acts 1968 to 1997(1).

(4) For the purposes of this regulation, where a person acts as an agent to acquire a relevant explosive for another person, the agent is to be treated as if the agent, as well as that other person, had acquired the relevant explosive and the provisions of paragraph (1) accordingly apply to the agent as well as to that other person.

 

Just think of it as BP, or flash. You can't manufacture 100g of that under the 'exception' unless you have a coer listing BP (and flash if it was issued after the new regs) It's the same for HE except you'd be very unlikely to get the coer.

I'm fairly confident I'm correct here, but I accept I'm not an expert, could Wayne chip in please

[fruitfulsteve]

Yes there appears to be a bit of a contradiction between COER and MSER. It seems that by using the 100g rule you in MSER you will be contravening the acquire part of the COER.

 

It seems like the grey area has just changed shade a bit.

 

IIRC a A&K for BP/shooters powder will only be issued to an address where no other explosive substances are stored so getting anything HE added to it would be against guidelines. Not sure if you would be able to get a acquire only for other explosives or not. 

[wayne]

It's worth getting the wording correct.

...laboratory analysis, testing, demonstration or experimentation (but not for practical use or supply).

 

I think you are only considering manufacture, which indeed allows up to 100g of any explosive.

But you also need to consider acquisition, section 2.5.1

 

Authorisation to acquire or acquire and keep explosives

5.  (1)  Subject to paragraph (3), no person may acquire any explosives unless—

(a)that person has a valid explosives certificate certifying that person to be a fit person to acquire explosives;

(b)that person acquires no more explosives than any quantity referred to in the explosives certificate;

©where the explosives certificate specifies the description of explosives which that person is a fit person to acquire, that person acquires only explosives of that description; and

(d)where the explosives certificate specifies purposes for which that person is a fit person to acquire explosives, that person acquires them only for those purposes.

(2) Subject to paragraph (3), no person may keep explosives unless that person—

(a)has a valid explosives certificate certifying that person to be a fit person to keep explosives;

(b)keeps no more explosives than the quantity referred to in the explosives certificate;

©where the explosives certificate specifies the description of explosives which that person is a fit person to keep, keeps only explosives of that description; and

(d)keeps them at any place specified in the explosives certificate.

(3) Paragraphs (1) and (2) do not apply to —

(a)the explosives as referred to in Schedule 2;

(b)pyrotechnic articles apart from those as referred to in Schedule 3; or

©ammunition the acquisition of which is regulated or prohibited by virtue of the Firearms Acts 1968 to 1997(1).

(4) For the purposes of this regulation, where a person acts as an agent to acquire a relevant explosive for another person, the agent is to be treated as if the agent, as well as that other person, had acquired the relevant explosive and the provisions of paragraph (1) accordingly apply to the agent as well as to that other person.

 

Just think of it as BP, or flash. You can't manufacture 100g of that under the 'exception' unless you have a coer listing BP (and flash if it was issued after the new regs) It's the same for HE except you'd be very unlikely to get the coer.

I'm fairly confident I'm correct here, but I accept I'm not an expert, could Wayne chip in please

 

Spot on!

[wayne]

Yes there appears to be a bit of a contradiction between COER and MSER. It seems that by using the 100g rule you in MSER you will be contravening the acquire part of the COER.

 

It seems like the grey area has just changed shade a bit.

 

IIRC a A&K for BP/shooters powder will only be issued to an address where no other explosive substances are stored so getting anything HE added to it would be against guidelines. Not sure if you would be able to get a acquire only for other explosives or not. 

 

Ok, let start:

 

• Please read the guidance...its all there...there is no need for further clarification!
• Forget COER and MSER, these have both been superseded by ER2014 (not ELR2014). 
• The regulations are simple, the manufacture of any explosive is deemed "acquisition", so don't think that just because you have made it that it doesn't mean that you havent acquired it.
• The only explosives that you can manufacture without an explosive certificate are those listed in schedule 2 of ER2014 or any excluded explosives in part 2 of schedule 2 of ER2014.
• There is a small exemption for 0.5g amounts in schedule 2, part 2 (point 14) for educational purposes, but unless you're in that kind of environment, I wouldn't think of applying the exemption.

As previously said, HE is outside the remit of our society, but also as Martyn says, just think HE is treated the same as BP/Flash from a licensing point of view - you will need a license unless listed in schedule 2.  If you do apply for an explosive license for any HE, just ensure that you have good reason to apply!

[fruitfulsteve]

Well that's more than a little disappointing,sound's like they've just legislated a lot of the fun out of secondary school chemistry lessons and the lives of amateur chemists.

 

So would 'for the fun of blowing up watermelons and such like' be good reason to apply ? if 'for the fun of killing animals and blowing bitumen discs to smithereens' is good reason to apply for (and get) a gun license

[wayne]

Well that's more than a little disappointing,sound's like they've just legislated a lot of the fun out of secondary school chemistry lessons and the lives of amateur chemists.

 

Not at all, see my point, "There is a small exemption for 0.5g amounts in schedule 2, part 2 (point 14) for educational purposes, but unless you're in that kind of environment, I wouldn't think of applying the exemption."

 

So would 'for the fun of blowing up watermelons and such like' be good reason to apply ? if 'for the fun of killing animals and blowing bitumen discs to smithereens' is good reason to apply for (and get) a gun license

 

On the whole nothing has changed between MSER/COER and ER2014 with regards to HE...you would have needed an explosives certificate in most cases to make <=100g of HE.  In a way things are better under ER2014 with the exemption detailed above!

[Arthur Brown]

Under MSER you may only make that which you have the authority to possess. I don't read this as changing under ER2014.

[fruitfulsteve]

The regs you mention state 'higher education' to me that's university or does that include secondary schools in the regs ?

 

So in short, if you have a acquire certificate you can buy up to the quantity allowed on the certificate, also if for some reason you want to make some of the explosives listed on the certificate you can make up to 100g. If you want to make more than that you will need to get a manufacturing license.

 

I'd still like to know wat a 'good reason' to apply for a acquisition certificate for small amounts of HE would be, i've been trying to register with the HSE website (without much joy so far) as i would like to see the list of schedule 1 explosives so i can make an inquiry about a few.

[wayne]

The regs you mention state 'higher education' to me that's university or does that include secondary schools in the regs ?

 

So in short, if you have a acquire certificate you can buy up to the quantity allowed on the certificate, also if for some reason you want to make some of the explosives listed on the certificate you can make up to 100g. If you want to make more than that you will need to get a manufacturing license.

 

I'd still like to know wat a 'good reason' to apply for a acquisition certificate for small amounts of HE would be, i've been trying to register with the HSE website (without much joy so far) as i would like to see the list of schedule 1 explosives so i can make an inquiry about a few.

 

Schedule 2, part 2, point 14 states:

 

"14.  Any pyrotechnic substance, in a quantity not exceeding 0.5 grams, which has been manufactured for, and is used for, demonstration purposes as part of an educational activity within the meaning of section 1(3) of the Further Education Act 1985 and either it is wholly used up in the demonstration or any amount remaining is destroyed immediately after it. "

 

and section 1(3) of the further education act 1985 states:

 

(3)For the purposes of this Act educational activities are—

(a)the provision of teaching and industrial and vocational training;

(b ) the carrying out of research; and

( c ) any activity incidental or ancillary to any activity mentioned in paragraph (a) or (b ) above.

 

 

So I would suggest, as long as its done for the reasons above, you don't have to be a university!

 

By schedule 1 (the old COER) I assume you mean schedule 2 (ER 2014)?  No need to register with the HSE to get a list, its freely available:

 

http://www.legislati...schedule/2/made

 

(you can view full ER 2014 from this link).

 

As for "good reason", that's obviously what ever you need the HE for!  If you don't know of a good reason to apply, what are you even thinking of???  If its experimentation, then that's the reason...just expect the ELO's to ask some detailed questions.  It's nothing to be scared of if that's what you want to do but just don't expect a license to be granted on a whim.

Edited by wayne, 21 November 2014 - 08:00 PM.

[fruitfulsteve]

Yes further not higher. Didn't see the subsection, at least secondary school chemistry lessons are safe from boredom

 

I think i may be a bit confused. I assumed schedule 1 would be a list of explosives you do need a certificate to acquire (with their un numbers), given that schedule 2 is a list of the ones you don't need a license to acquire. Is there a definitive list of all explosives and their legal/regulatory statues ? 

 

Not really experimentation but replication of a standard process then demonstration. I'm not scared, the way i look at it they have no more reason to deny a explosive license to a sensible upstanding member of society than they do a gun license to the same, in fact a few grams of HE are arguably a lot less dangerous (even in the wrong hands) than a gun with 500 rounds of ammunition and as i said earlier you can basically use for 'fun' as good reason for a FAC. However that don't mean ya average ELO will see it the same way i do !!!

[fruitfulsteve]

Nothing on the HSE website listing controlled explosives, had to resort to wiki to get the un numbers i so desperately craved .... shabsters !!