41 replies to this topic

[MMMMMM Pyro]

Yeah its true KMnO4 is quite dangerous the only accident that I have ever had with pyro was involving the stuff it happened about a year ago and I still have the scars. Do not use it in firework comps only use it for small demonstrations with Al or Mg powders.

[EnigmaticBiker]

Could somebody give us a quick run down of the dangers of KMnO4? Ive had a look at the MSDS for it and it looks pretty messy stuff. Ive seen it with Al, seemed pretty rediculous, something you would have to give great respect. What are the dangers of aquireing Manganese poisening? Ive learnt that it is readily absorbed into skin, I assume that protective clothing is required when handelling. Also, ive heared that its comps can be ignighted by moisture, is this true?
Thanks.

One of the potential dangers of KMnO4 is (like Chlorates) when it is mixed with sulphur, traces of conc H2SO4 are produced which form Mn2O7 = permanganic anhydride (purple vapour).
This spontaneously reacts with organic or otherwise oxidisable materials at room temp.
This could take seconds to years to happen depending on conditions.

More @

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manganese

etc. etc.

Inhaling Manganese vapours regularly can cause a form of Parkinsonism.

Look it up.

[Mumbles]

One of the potential dangers of KMnO4 is (like Chlorates) when it is mixed with sulphur, traces of conc H2SO4 are produced which form Mn2O7 = permanganic anhydride (purple vapour).
This spontaneously reacts with organic or otherwise oxidisable materials at room temp.
This could take seconds to years to happen depending on conditions.

Manganese Heptoxide (Manganese (VII) Oxide) is not a purple vapor. It is a green oily liquid. In addition to reacting with organics, it is also an explosive on it's own. It is on par with properly prepared Nitroglycerine. For this to properly be equated, one must realise that Nitroglycerine is not as sensitive as the cartoons make it out to be. Droping it on the floor will not cause an explosion. It must be struck with the force of a 1kg weight dropped from a height of 32 cm.

[EnigmaticBiker]

Manganese Heptoxide (Manganese (VII) Oxide) is not a purple vapor. It is a green oily liquid. In addition to reacting with organics, it is also an explosive on it's own. It is on par with properly prepared Nitroglycerine. For this to properly be equated, one must realise that Nitroglycerine is not as sensitive as the cartoons make it out to be. Droping it on the floor will not cause an explosion. It must be struck with the force of a 1kg weight dropped from a height of 32 cm.

I'm quoting other sources, it's something I wouldn't make.

Surprised to hear of it as green, a colour I associate with a lower oxidation state of Manganese.

Interesting comparison with Nitroglycerine, I got the impression that Nitroglycerine was sensitive at temperatures over 25degC or is that just during manufacture?
(And only really predictable when absorbed (adsorbed?) onto Kieselgur clay).

Not sure if the Admin on this forum would like this thread to get more detailed re: HE

Simon

[fishy1]

did anyone see "Lost" last night on TV? i don't like watching it, but it was on.

they found a box of dynamite, then wrapped a stick in a wet cloth. then, as one of them held it up, it detonated. the explosion looked exactly like a fireball. don't believe everything on tv.

[adamw]

Hehe yeah. I love Lost, but it as unrealistic as heck. Well, aren't all TV dramas / films?!

When they blew open the hatch, they just 'plugged' the 'fuse' (a roll of Visco??) into the sticks and lit it. Surely the fuse will have degraded far worse than the dynamite, and they most certainly would have needed a detonator (I believe that when presented with a flame, NG will just burn), unless the state that it was in would have formed some more sensitive compounds?

And for all you lot in US / Eire / elsewhere.. don't tell us any more about the series (back on in summer over here??)

RE: Above discussion on the Manganese compounds is allowed, and may it serve as a further warning not to fool with the stuff!

[lord_dranack]

Sadly I missed the last two episodes- as to dynamite, correct me if I'm wrong, but I think it degrades in storage anyway, so it would more than likley have been useless!

[fishy1]

Hehe yeah. I love Lost, but it as unrealistic as heck. Well, aren't all TV dramas / films?!

When they blew open the hatch, they just 'plugged' the 'fuse' (a roll of Visco??) into the sticks and lit it. Surely the fuse will have degraded far worse than the dynamite, and they most certainly would have needed a detonator (I believe that when presented with a flame, NG will just burn), unless the state that it was in would have formed some more sensitive compounds?

And for all you lot in US / Eire / elsewhere.. don't tell us any more about the series (back on in summer over here??)

RE: Above discussion on the Manganese compounds is allowed, and may it serve as a further warning not to fool with the stuff!

NG just burns when a fuse is used, but dynamite will detonate with a fuse (i think).

[adamw]

'Dynamite' (Copyright Alfred Nobel !) IS NG absorbed by 'kieselguhr' (clay) to render it safer to handle, so if anything it would be harder to initiate!

[RegimentalPyro]

The danger is that certain climates cause dynamite sticks to "sweat" out the NG. This can lead to droplets of pure NG on the outside of the stick where it can be struck, or fall to the floor.

That being said, the force required to cause NG to initiate is something like "1kg weight dropped from thirtysomthing inches" if I remember correctly.

The bottom line is that Hollywood isn't very realistic, the reason being the preconceived notion that realism doesn't look good. I personally disagree - but hey! I don't make films for a living.

[mussie_electric]

Many many moons ago as a youngster, I dabbled with KMno4, S and Zn dust... the mix without the latter was a hot flame, the dust turned it into an agressive and blinding flash, not confined in a tube.. could easily have been blinded. That alone, notwithstanding the toxicity, would be enough to suggest you seek to marry it off in small amounts at a distance with glycerine. Bad stuff!

[barra69]

Yes, NG is a fairly interesting material that is heavily misrepresented by the film industry. In the drop test it has a mixed record as it will detonate at a lower drop if it is between steel. Again, referring to memory I think that the mixture under test is contained in a lead ampule and various materials used as the dropper. The problem with the various grades of Keiselguhr/ NG mixes is indeed if it 'sweats.' The smell is a good indicator followed by a blinding headache if you are not in daily contact with said mixture. Headache is caused by the NG lowering the blood pressure. (also called glycerine trinitrate when used as a heart drug).
There is another less viscous liquid which is treated the same way that has about 15% more energy.
Not to be tampered with!

[Mumbles]

Kieselguhr is not clay, however clay was the original mixing compound. Kieselguhr is also known as diatomaceous earth. It is the shells of little sea creatures called diatoms(go figure). It also doesn't neccesarily make it safer to handle. Due to the liquid nature of NG it is actually reativly shock insensitive because it can conture to the shape of the blow. The clay and diatomaceous earth soak it in and give it more of a solid property making it more "firm" to shock. It disables it's ability to conform to the blow greatly. In either form it still requires a blasting cap to be detonated.

NG is the most sentivive around 13C. It is it's freezing point. When frozen, it is nearly inert. I would hit it with a hammer and not be worried. When a liquid it is not horribly sensitive either. However when a combonation of the two it is incredibly sensitive. The liquid NG gets rubbed between the crystals, and this produces friction during movement. Even if you leave a vial sitting undisturbed it may still explode. As the NG crystals melt they shift and fall to the bottom causing impacts and friction.

Regimental, I think you are getting inches confused with centimeters. The drop test has a value of 32cm at 1kg. It is a tricky thing though. The value for NG changes depending on the material. The standard materials give a value of 32cm though. At least according to Federov(Encyclopedia of Explosives volume 6 I believe it's in).

Sweating of the dynamite is indeed a problem. The have to be old and stored in an area of rather large temperature change, at least 30C change I believe it is. The material works it's way from the clay or kieselguhr, and soaks through the cardboard tube. The main problem with sensitivity came from the NG becoming acidic. I don't remember where it's from, but some theories indicate the use of acidic glue. It could just be thermal decomposition forming some nitric acid. The new dynamite sticks use a special coating on the tubes that doesn't allow for sweating. It is almost a plastic sheath on the inside. Of course the use of actual dynamite is being phased out for more effecient, cheaper materials.

I've never experienced a nitro headache so I cannot vouch. Eating sugar seemed to help some people. Erythithol was more efficient than table sugar. I have heard some stories about the headaches though. It will take more than a whiff of the NG to get a headache. Most of the time, the headaches are caused by it getting absorbed through your skin. Random fact, it also has a sweet taste. When acidic it tastes horrid though. I know which compound Barra refers to. While it does contain more energy per gram, it is actually even less sensitive because it is less viscous and can react to the shock even better than NG. It does give more painful and more frequent nitro headaches as well.

Sorry for this going totally away from the topic at hand.

Edited by Mumbles, 26 January 2006 - 11:11 PM.

[jcow]

I had a small amount of permanganate a while ago and made a small amount of flash powder as an experiment (about a teaspoon full). I mixed it about half and half with quite course Magnesium powder. il lit it unconfined and it burnt very fast with a large, slightly purple flame. i was suprised becuase i assumed it was a weak oxidiser as it hardly burns when mixed with icing sugar.

[Zinginex]

Permanganate (on paper/tissue) x1 + Antifreeze (glycol based) x2 = spontanious combustion
Like Richard says its a lab demonstration and gives off nasty's. Do it outside and wear PPE.

Just wondering, in anti-freeze, will it be useable for this experiment if it has "CONTAINS ETHYLENE GLYCOL" written on the back?
ThAnKs