63 replies to this topic

[Andrew]

However there is no way I want to get done for possession of a prohibited material then try to apply for a licence to store or manufacture.

There's no such thing as a 'prohibited material' except say kiddy porn. There are specific laws against having say plutonium (international treaties), b**bs, explosives, but there is nothing illegal about owning a load of chemicals. Nor is there anything illegal about owning fireworks or compositions if they were made and are stored in accordance with the law. There are 'prescribed materials', like drugs, carcinogenic chemicals, some chemical that pose special interest to the manufacture of IEDs, which own can only legally posses if one has an end user certificate, an example would be a prescription!

There are guidelines that the police are suppose to follow upon making a 'find' of chemicals (but they rarely do btw). If certain chemicals are found in certain quantities it warrants further investigation by scientific services (a branch of the police), that's all. It is not within the police power to arrest if you own chemicals, nor is it within their power to confiscate chemicals for no good reason.



I had a thought. If one has a registered explosives store (easy and cheap). You could make all your compositions at a registered factory (local of course), perhaps at a club (in the future). As most compositions are 1.4 you can legally transport up to 333kg on UK road without any certificate or training, if you stuck below 20kg which I'm sure you'd bloody well want to you can even carry comps classed as 1.1G. Once at your registered storage (shed ), one could assemble up to 10kg of fireworks at a time. Basically a good arrangement and safe legally for amateur work would be to manufacture your explosives at a licensed factory, store them at your home (registered of course) and then use the exemption in Regulation 9 to assemble fireworks at up to 10kg at a time.

[Arthur Brown]

MSER is a free official download from http://www.opsi.gov....20051082.htm#15

Though at 111 pages its prob cheaper to buy a copy than print it off!

[dr thrust]

MSER is a free official download from http://www.opsi.gov....20051082.htm#15

Though at 111 pages its prob cheaper to buy a copy than print it off!

thanks i'll sit down and read this. just one thing, everybody keeps harping on about how easy it is to register for a explosives store registration form,may i ask how i get this form ?,and what i need to do ,do i need to keep the oxidizers in a locked steel cabinet,safe? ive only got kno3 so far thanks chris....

[Arthur Brown]

Remember also that there is an ACOP to MSER:

The HSE have just published the Approved Code of Practice to accompany the new Manufacture and Storage of Explosives Regulations (MSER). The document can be ordered from any good bookshop or direct from the HSE. The ISBN number is 0717628167.

If this is free online and someone finds the url then please post it, or PM me and I will edit it into my post here.


Chemical storage will need an understanding of COSHH.

[Andrew]

To register to need to declare:

Name
DOB POB
Address
Telephone number
Address of the store
Box ticking (whether you are keeping fireworks, pyrotechnic devices,other [you'd put loose compositions?])
Box ticking (you tick "Less than 250kg", "No", "New Registration")
Box ticking (you tick "No", "No", [if you can't tick No you won't get a certificate])
Box ticking (you tick "Recreational User", "No", skip a load of the form)
Details on Who is responsible for the store
Out of Hours Contact details
Signature
Box ticking (you tick "I enclose a cheque for £72") <------ That's the most difficult part


See a piece of piss!

[spectrum]

I think the thread got everyone going. I am not used to getting much of a reaction from anything!

I have spoken to HSE and, without wanting to speak for them I am able, I feel, to quote the following comments given directly to me by a senior figure whom I have known personally for many many years (18 maybe)

1. HSE are constantly looking to strengthen their links with Industry

(I hope and would very much like to think that you ARE the future of the industry)

2. The idea I suggested about HSE meeting you guys was not dismissed, far from it. I believe a formal approach will need to be made and it will be given due consideration. It was greeted with some warmth when I suggested the idea. I hope you can get together and get this sorted.

I remain available for any help I can provide and again, having considered much of what has been commented on over the recent past, I genuinely feel that, in the absence of any industry (as existed when I joined) you people provide the real means to preserve and advance the industry (in the real sense NOT the trade which is a very different thing) in this country. No bullshit here, I really do think that.

[maxman]

I might be missing something here so please bare with me. I have been reading MSER Section on separation distances.Hazard type4 is BP and pyro comps as far as I can tell. It refers to table9 where 100g to 250Kg Low density distance (m) is 0. Can anyone explain this please? Distance from where? another building?

Also is there another document that spells out criteria for making BP? such as how far down a field the place of manufacture is, as from what I understand, that document is referring to storage of BP isn't it? I just want to know if it is going to be something that I could realistically look at.

I was just reading the article in fireworks mag about dean fireworks. He says the he does not have a gunpowder magazine as an alarm system would be £3000 and a mandatory red care system of on going maintenance would be £1500 a year. This added to the cost of gunpowder increases the price from £6-£8 a kilo by £3 a kilo. From this I assume he doesnt make it but buys it?? Is there a reason for this since to make from raw materials surely the cost is more like £1.50 a kilo?

[spectrum]

I might be missing something here so please bare with me. I have been reading MSER Section on separation distances.Hazard type4 is BP and pyro comps as far as I can tell. It refers to table9 where 100g to 250Kg Low density distance (m) is 0. Can anyone explain this please? Distance from where? another building?

Also is there another document that spells out criteria for making BP? such as how far down a field the place of manufacture is, as from what I understand, that document is referring to storage of BP isn't it? I just want to know if it is going to be something that I could realistically look at.

I was just reading the article in fireworks mag about dean fireworks. He says the he does not have a gunpowder magazine as an alarm system would be £3000 and a mandatory red care system of on going maintenance would be £1500 a year. This added to the cost of gunpowder increases the price from £6-£8 a kilo by £3 a kilo. From this I assume he doesnt make it but buys it?? Is there a reason for this since to make from raw materials surely the cost is more like £1.50 a kilo?

I am not sure where the BP and Pyro comps thing comes from, but Hazard Type 4 refers not necessarily to a specific composition but to the nature of the effects resulting from an ignition - in this case there is a mass fire risk but NOT a mass explosion risk. In the case of BP this would certainly not be the case, Blackpowder is classified as 1.1 or Hazard type 1. Most pyro comps would be either hazard type 3 (typically smoke composition) or hazard type 1 (flash composition) for example.

You need to judge honestly the nature of the powder or device or component - whatever is being stored, handled or processed and check this alongside the tables.

In terms of what the distance relates to - this is shown on the table, there are various columns which have an explanation, occupied building, road, explosive works etc. These places are described and referred to in column with reference notes at the foot.

Gunpowder is a controlled explosive and as such requires an alarm, ironically despite the fact that it is less powerful than most flash powders which do not. This means an alarm with a certain standard of security.

Forget the cost of raw materials, blackpowder is expensive to buy and more expensive to keep, making it would not necessarily circumnavigate the law and it wouldn't be as good. (although I have never made it!)

[maxman]

So BP is hazard type 1 and then when iit's made into a firework it becomes the lower hazard type 4?

[Andrew]

HT 1 "Mass Explosion Hazard"
HT 2 "Projectile Hazard" but no mass explosion hazard
HT 3 "Fire Hazard"
HT 4 "Minor Explosion Hazard"

Blackpowder is classified as 1.1 or Hazard type 1. Most pyro comps would be either hazard type 3 (typically smoke composition) or hazard type 1 (flash composition) for example.

You need to judge honestly the nature of the powder or device or component - whatever is being stored, handled or processed and check this alongside the tables.

???

I never imagined that BP stored in a plastic container would constitute a "Mass Explosion Hazard" or a "Projectile Hazard". I suspect there might be a little class rigging as usual (like for the transport of Methanol [now LQ0 under ADR] to stop home bio-diesel production). If so how do other comps fair? I imagined flash being HT1, and perhaps grain and quick match as well, and whistle mixes, but never meal powder!

Does the classification depend on how it is stored as well? For BP is that ALL loose BP as defined within MSER is 1.1G

I might be missing something here so please bare with me. I have been reading MSER Section on separation distances.Hazard type4 is BP and pyro comps as far as I can tell. It refers to table9 where 100g to 250Kg Low density distance (m) is 0. Can anyone explain this please? Distance from where? another building?

There is no reference to what low density means within MSER.

I mentioned that to be "Safe" you could - only ever go up to the 30kg NEQ (i.e. HT1) on a registration to store explosives. And most people would never need that much anyway.

You still have to make sure that your store is safe.

[maxman]

I'm assuming then that the hazard type will depend on quantity and how it is stored as to the type 1 to 4 it is given. I mean assuming I want to legally mill 200g BP then if there was an accident the building isn't going to be wiped out (hazard 4 ?) Milling 5kg in your shed ( no shed left!) (hazard 1?) Is this correct?

[Andrew]

I'm assuming then that the hazard type will depend on quantity and how it is stored as to the type 1 to 4 it is given. I mean assuming I want to legally mill 200g BP then if there was an accident the building isn't going to be wiped out (hazard 4 ?) Milling 5kg in your shed ( no shed left!) (hazard 1?) Is this correct?

You've hit it on the head. Typically the HT classes are akin to transport groups, in which 1.1 (HT1) means that it would affect the entire vehicle instantaneously.

There is however (I suspect) some "class rigging", which is where certain popular things that the government want more control over get upped a class or two to make it less accessible.

A prime example of this is the altering of the LQ (limited quantity) of Methanol for shipping. Making it LQ0 means that an ADR courier must take it and this excluded a lot of people from making bio-diesel, you see the government (I mean Gordon ooww I'm in power Brown) knew what they (he) was doing when they (he) relaxed the tax on bio-fuels because no f**ker can make it now without paying ridiculous amounts for the methanol delivery. Which means more tax!

If contrary to common sense, BP in small quantities in plastic containers and they are stored in fireproof settings, i.e. HT4/HT3 at the worst, is 1.1G and ranked along side a big pile of flash, it will be because the government is controlling an easily accessible slightly dangerous material. It is possible to store BP in such a way that is could be classified as 1.4S, the "S" means that it will not pose any threat to fire-fighters.



I think a good way forward would be to look at the requirements of the older COER when "acquiring" BP and then storing it. The precautions required here could be used as guidelines for the storage of made BP, and thus the obtaining of a registration to store explosives (for which no inspection is required I think).

Edited by Andrew, 17 August 2007 - 09:29 AM.

[maxman]

Basically as I'm sure most on this forum would want is to be able to experiment, make relatively small amounts of BP, fountains, rockets, Saxons and shells 3-4"( I speak for myself as regards to the shell size) I could happily do all that I wanted with 500g BP and 1kg stars. This surely must only present a class4 hazard. If Items were for own personal use and not for sale, probably for use on site only and not to be transported, then it would seem that this should be within the means of a number of members to be achievable legally with not a massive outlay of cash shouldn't it?

[spectrum]

You have all hit on a point which I agree requires clarrification. Basically if it explodes as one then it is hazard type 1, therefore a small quantity of flash powder would be regarded as HT1. That is simple. If the flash powder were to be stored in two sturdy containers then the pair of containers, if each were capable of resisting the effects of the others function and thus protect its own contents would, as a pair surely be considered collectively a hazard type 3 cargo within the workplace since, they would NOT explode as one but would do so separately.

In effect, as one of you has rightly pointed out, Blackpowder will have a variable hazard type depending on how it is stored or encapsulated. Small flash maroons for example are, in certain curcumstances classified as hazard type 4 yet the contents are undoubtedly hazard type 1 at the manufacture stage!

You need to take a view and a sensible one at that. At the extreme end of the scale, a single electric igniter will, if functioned, explode as a single event but this is clearly not a hazard type one situation (this is such an extreme example that it is ludicrous). Collectively and kept properly a multitude of these items will of course produce an effect which would place them in a different hazard category.

I certainly think that there should be some additional qualifying criteria to enable sensible and accurate classification of hazard type within the workplace, maybe connected to the brisance of the materials in question.

[digger]

Right then chaps lets resurrect this thread for a short while.

I have done a fair bit of experimentation now, in accordance with MSER.

I would like to move onto the next stage so I can at least do an experimental display (maybe in the future take the next steps towards manufacture depending on several factors).

I now have an available plot of land (house plus about 7 acres surrounded by other farmland) on which I can put together a store / experimental site.

I have read allot of the MSER stuff, however it has been a couple of months since I read it in detail (I can't remember what I had for breakfast this morning).

I was thinking of putting up a shed (non dwelling temporary structure less than 30m² to avoid planning and building regs) to manufacture my 100 gram batches in by on site mixing etc. However I assume that the store would have to be a separate building to this, is this correct?

So my first few questions are what what would constitute an adequate store for the purpose of registration/licensing regarding the building required? I was thinking of maybe a 10ft shipping container well in excess of 75m away from the house, how does this sound? I would also like to store the raw chemicals within this container can any one see any problems with this?

P.S. I will send off my registration for the UKPS soon, I have been meaning to do it for some time now, but have not managed to pull my finger out and get two passport photo's sorted (lame excuse I know). I look forward to reading the Dean fireworks article when I get registered.