94 replies to this topic

[maxman]

This all seems very interesting but is it really a viable proposition?

Where does Lancaster mention it Dean?

[Arthur Brown]

This is something that will take a long time in polite negotiation, and should be done very carefully. Odd Kiddie letters on ruled paper will not inspire confidence in top ministerial and department and executive offices, and may spoil the pitch for a more advised approach.

The basic justification comes in A. St. H. Brock's book that with prohibition comes illegal manufacture, (as proven many times inc the American alcohol prohibition). Brock suggested that small licensed factories could replace the unlicensed manufacture.

The really big problem is convincing HMG and the general public that fireworks factories make safe neighbours! Also there is the "degree" or "extent" to police somehow. Someone making a 25g fountain in a shed 50 yards away or making high explosives in their kitchen in a neighbouring terrace house would offer differing "neighbour attitudes". Separating legitimate fireworks interest from unwise explosive interest is a permanent problem here and would be a huge concern IF HSE were to start along the road to small factory licensing.

Look at moving to a house with a multi acre plot! There would be an enquiry if you blew up a small shed in the middle of nowhere, there would be much worse if you blew up the house and several neighbouring houses.

[pyrotechnist]

I think it is a viable proposition as no one really has the money to invest 4k or so on a license to manufacture fireworks and if you do not get that we are limited to 100g or being caught and arrested for manufacturing fireworks. This type of regulation would be great for many people and I think will bring back many small to medium sized firework companies within the UK as china increase their price.

The basic justification comes in A. St. H. Brock's book that with prohibition comes illegal manufacture, (as proven many times inc the American alcohol prohibition). Brock suggested that small licensed factories could replace the unlicensed manufacture.

This is one reason why banning fireworks will be a disaster in this country and also why the current legislation is just not working as it is to restrictive.

The really big problem is convincing HMG and the general public that fireworks factories make safe neighbours! Also there is the "degree" or "extent" to police somehow. Someone making a 25g fountain in a shed 50 yards away or making high explosives in their kitchen in a neighbouring terrace house would offer differing "neighbour attitudes". Separating legitimate fireworks interest from unwise explosive interest is a permanent problem here and would be a huge concern IF HSE were to start along the road to small factory licensing.

Then a proposed method could be to issue a certificate like a COER were the police check you and your place out and were you need experience in handling fireworks or manufacturing fireworks before a certificate is issued. Another plan could be for the UKPS to maybe make some system were you need to be a paying member of this society and have police checks etc before being handed a small firework manufacturing license.

You are going to get people using explosives in the wrong way no matter were you go that is just todays world and why should we be ruled out for some prats who want to rave havoc?

Look at moving to a house with a multi acre plot! There would be an enquiry if you blew up a small shed in the middle of nowhere, there would be much worse if you blew up the house and several neighbouring houses.

Not many people have the privilege to own a house with a lot of land.

Edited by pyrotechnist, 23 July 2008 - 08:01 PM.

[crystal palace fireworks]

We need to discuss the current storage distances for fireworks from other building, and then scale down to an acceptable level based upon say a limit to store 15 kg of firework compostion, and perhaps with a limit on the storage of flash powder!

To me, the safest and possibly the cheapest way to attempt to minimise the effects of an accidental blast to other nearby buildings, is to surround the shed with mounds of earth or 3 or 4 sides, (but Im sure there are other practical effective methods ive not thought of).....I know you guys will come up with something!

Drainage of semi dug height sheds need to be discussed!, this could include slopeaway concrete path with perhaps guttering on the shed!

I would say the sheds need to be of a sturdy ridged plastic type (i ve saw them in Costco once for about £350) rather than wood for reasons of prolonged maintenance, plus they keep the damp out better I would say!

An electric supply to the shed should be housed in a outside water proof box,

Motors to power machinery need to be boxed and vented to the outside if they are not of the sealed type, plus all 13 amp appliances should be wire directly to consumer box, (no sockets allowed).

Lighting needs to be housed in sealed light fittings!

A First-Aid kit with eye wash bottles is a must, Fire Exstinguiser etc, cling film and ice packs on hand perhaps.

Colour of flooring should bright (to show up accidental spilt compositions) and be none sparking and easy to maintain, and should come up to a skirting board height to make cleaning up easier.

Ventilation and perhaps heating of shed ? = I don`t know what the best adopted method should be! (sealed oil type radiator might be good)

A small concrete surround pit for broken fireworks or spilt composition needs to be in place in the garden.

Testing of fireworks should not be done in back gardens (noise issues and general consideration of neighbours) and of safety reasons involving none British Standard fireworks, (In the long term I would like to see designated areas in each county for us to let off our non british standard fireworks).

Drying trays/boxes for compositons (rice coated hulls and stars etc) need to be considered in seperate areas perhaps!

License and inspection fees of premises need to be discussed.

CRB checks need to be part of the license.

Those that don`t have a garden to build or errect a shed to manufacture, could perhaps use other`s pyro premises facilities providing they pay there own license fees and meet all the security criteria!

Basically we need to show the authorities that we are professional and responsible.

Edited by crystal palace fireworks, 23 July 2008 - 11:59 PM.

[Arthur Brown]

A recent personal discussion with RichardH included my suggestion that the Society consider producing a document in partnership with HSE listing the requirements for a factory licence application and the manner of application required. Whether this is by lobbying for the return of a "small factory permission" or simply by finding the smallest that a factory may be under the current Acts and Regs will be part of the findings of the report.

This is likely to involve serious costs (on a Society scale) and still may not make personal factories possible. I have suggested that any surplus from the cat4 course is put to this purpose if the participants agree.

In my opinion (and only that) a fund of under £5000 should enable the society to approach the HSE with a view to determining the correct form of application to make and the terms and conditions necessary to establish a small factory. This could then be a Society publication available to investors, members and non members for money.

There will remain the problem of device classification and the restrictions on transport of unclassified devices. There will also remain the problem of insuring the use of home made, unclassified devices.


The HSE will however need to see that the work and the factories actually create a SAFER environment than at present. Remember that M80s and bangers in general are NOT items in retail trade in this country and do seem to be the first fireworks that many people want to make.

From me purely rhetorically: How many people are willing to put up say £250 as a contribution to a fund for the UKPS to have formal discussions with HSE (which can charge an officer's time at £150 an hour) with a view to publishing a members guide to the regulations applying to the application for a (small) Factory Licence?

All of this being specifically for UK members with possible differences in England, Wales, Scotland and great differences in Northern Ireland.

Personally my interests are in the area of firework displays for a paying public, therefore all the devices have to be classified so the establishment of a small factory to produce unclassified items is of little value. Your interest will differ and there may be sufficient people to fund this project. Once you have the licence application procedure defined, there will still be the actual applications for each factory site to pay for, and all the actual establishment costs to fund. With the looming credit crisis new liabilities are not to be undertaken lightly

[pyrotechnist]

But if we cannot get this type of license set up then what are we stuck with ? The current license fee seems to be around 4 or 5k which is way to much money for a single shed and storage magazine . No one unless you are rich will be able to afford such a big thing. This means we still have to produce fireworks without a license which the HSE seriously do not want.

[crystal palace fireworks]

I think the UKPS should consider making contact with www.dius.gov.uk and explain our position, we may get pointed in the right direction for a grant to pay for a HSE study involving a small manufacturing license!

[phildunford]

It would be nice to see a response to Arthur's considered and sensible looking proposal from someone on the committee...

[pyrotechnist]

Yes me to I really would love to see something going towards this type of license as why should anyone in their right mind want to spend 4 or 5k on a license for one shed and store and maybe even get refused it .

Is the classification of devices relevant for a private firework factory that is not selling? if so basic guidelines could be set up for appropriate labeling etc so that governmental bodies and police know that the device has been made under the small manufacturers regulation.

Edited by pyrotechnist, 25 July 2008 - 10:13 AM.

[digger]

Is the classification of devices relevant for a private firework factory that is not selling?

To some extent yes, however they may not need to be british / EU / UN standards, self classification for storage may be possible (I stand to be corrected). There will be issues relating to your storage arrangements. An 8" shell is 1.1 and will bring your entire stores limits down to the 1.1 weight, if you can even put in there in the first place (depends on storage licence arrangements).

Edited by digger, 25 July 2008 - 07:20 PM.

[pyrotechnist]

Then limits could be arranged so people cannot make an 8> inch shell unless you had a storage license for 1.1 class goods.

[Arthur Brown]

Classification means placed in a UN transport category for transport, and defined as part to a firework category to BS for marked safety distances.

[Mortartube]

Perhaps this society should look for a huge tract of land where it could also have it's own factory and firing site. No need to transport then. Wouldn't that be lovely.

Edited by Mortartube, 25 July 2008 - 06:44 PM.

[pyrotechnist]

Perhaps this society should look for a huge tract of land where it could also have it's own factory and firing site. No need to transport then. Wouldn't that be lovely.

Isn't the new site in faldingworth similar to that?

[maxman]

The fact that the society has a factory in the making is fantastic news and a very big step in the right direction. If I lived a little nearer I would be so happy. Unfortunately 2 1/2 hr each way drive is a bit to far to make a couple of bottle rockets for me. Maybe in the future other sites may happen too or better still some more realistic provisions within the law for small scale manufacture and experimentation.