94 replies to this topic

[pyrotechnist]

That may then out rule the majority of us as garden space in todays houses are limited due to the amount of land and houses being built on that land. My back yard is big but not 300 metres though the amount of pyrotechnic compositions or devices I make should require 0 - 1 metres as I do not want to build anything over this.

[Arthur Brown]

HSE will likely consider the distance to neighbours too! Realistically you shouldnt plan to disturb the neighbours! As much firework testing happens in the evening.......

Sadly unless you have significant land then the idea of a factory is a non starter.

[crystal palace fireworks]

I agree, testing untried fireworks around residential premises (back gardens) is going to be a No No as far as HSE or other regulatory bodies are concerned!, but I don`t see why proposals can`t be put forward to use local authority parkland (cordoned off areas to test fireworks once a week for a limited time)?

Small manufacture is very possible in sheds in gardens providing added security and protection is given in terms of adding to MSER guidelines,.........i.e. by making sure sheds are banked by earth mounds, in other words.............if it was good enough to build Anderson Shelters to protect us from b**b fall-out in gardens in WW2, then why not a simular structure to protect nearby surrounding structures when we make small quantities of fireworks?

Come on guys..............this society is not going to be taken seriously by authorities unless we agree on common ground issues!

[Rick]

The BS/EN standards, perhaps, should be a secondary concern for the society; to be looked at once a factory has been established.

Any firework manufactured must be classified and authorised by a Competent Authority; in the UK this is the HSE. Classification is for international identification. Fireworks are assigned to dangerous goods Class 1 – Explosives then a sub-division denoting hazard (1 – 5, “mass explosion” – “no significant”). Classification is required before any article may be transported or stored.

The society needs to find a solution as to how a newly manufactured item may be stored/tested.

Looking at hazard division worse case “mass explosion” it would be reasonable to assume, that until correctly classified and authorised, a “manufactured firework” represents a “mass explosion” hazard 1.1. It could not be anything higher.

The factory application should have scope to store sufficient quantities of “manufactured fireworks”. What this quantity actually is is for you guys to debate.

The transportation from A – B of an unclassified article, without an exemption, is a no no. However, if your factory site has a test facility there would be no need to transport.

Discussions with the HSE that start with “we require a factory licence with a facility to store part manufactured and “unclassified articles” which will be considered as HT1 until classified for the purpose of UK firework manufacture and research…” could well be the best tact.

Building construction, space requirements and guidance are all in the MSER.

The society needs to be able to demonstrate:

1) sufficient manufacture knowledge
2) work instructions / safe systems of work
3) management controls/responsibilities
4) maintenance of equipment/plant
5) compliance with legislation, regulations, ACoP’s and HSE advice

Find yourselves a spokesman/competent person whom will take overall responsibility for discussions, licence application, site and operation.

[pyrotechnist]

I do not think you need earth mounded sheds. If you look at a lot of pyro companies they use wooden fence sheets or metal mesh fences that surround the building. No one in the right mind will earth mound a shed within their back yard. The reasons being are 1) You mite need planning permission? 2) Costs a lot of money 3) To dam messy for a simple garden shed 4) Not many people have the garden space or time for such a challenge.

I do think though we definatly need to get the ball on the roll and start getting advice on this and plans going. I do not see why this couldn't be issued like a COER since the 'Small Firework Manufacturing License' was issued via the local authority just like a COER is. Then people with experience and no criminal record can be issued such a license.

It seems the testing of fireworks is a big issue and I ain't sure how we all will go about that but I am sure there is a solution. I do think we should also take up Spectrums offer on drafting a plan for 2 types of factories or maybe 3? I personally believe the type of firework factory that needs a small manufacturing license should be one with 1 or 2 - 3 construction buildings and 1 or 2 storage magazines.

I hope the ball gets rolling soon as I and probably a lot of others want this to happen.

[crystal palace fireworks]

I do not think you need earth mounded sheds. If you look at a lot of pyro companies they use wooden fence sheets or metal mesh fences that surround the building. No one in the right mind will earth mound a shed within their back yard. The reasons being are 1) You mite need planning permission? 2) Costs a lot of money 3) To dam messy for a simple garden shed 4) Not many people have the garden space or time for such a challenge.

I do think though we definatly need to get the ball on the roll and start getting advice on this and plans going. I do not see why this couldn't be issued like a COER since the 'Small Firework Manufacturing License' was issued via the local authority just like a COER is. Then people with experience and no criminal record can be issued such a license.

It seems the testing of fireworks is a big issue and I ain't sure how we all will go about that but I am sure there is a solution. I do think we should also take up Spectrums offer on drafting a plan for 2 types of factories or maybe 3? I personally believe the type of firework factory that needs a small manufacturing license should be one with 1 or 2 - 3 construction buildings and 1 or 2 storage magazines.

I hope the ball gets rolling soon as I and probably a lot of others want this to happen.

Ok, here`s why I am saying earth mounds for us guys, but I maybe wrong (its only an idea).

1, Companies that currently make firework devices are sited away from towns or cities ( country/rural ) in remote areas for good reason (safety of distances in case accidents happen), and where immediate break-in`s issues can not be addressed quickly.

2, However, we are talking about our own back gardens where security of the shed is a slightly different issue (there is someone close-by most of the time), and it can be alarmed and accessed more quickly if need be in most cases if a break-in did happen.

Also (earth mounds), if you did have an explosive accident (say within 60 feet of your house), then the close surrounding residential properties would have a high degree of protection if you had earth mounds where the roof of the shed could direct the explostion upwards!,.................yes it would be physical hard work if you did build it by a shovel and spade, but if our fathers and grandfathers did it with there bare hands (anderson shelters).........then why can`t we?.........or we have become a nation of lards!

Also, those gardens that have side or rear access, could hire a driver and small digger for a day for about £180 (basically you could build a secure empty unit (plastic or wooden shed) for around £1200 (probably including a electric supply), also sheds (because they are temporary buildings) do not need planning permission!

All Im thinking of is allowing us a way to manufacture in our gardens by restricting distances to other buildings in a safe way!

I maybe wrong, but 2 or 3 other buildings would not be needed for storage in the quantities we are going to make!, althought we are still going to need seperate storage boxes away from the main shed!........this should not be problem if they are well housed or secured in simular fashion.

The other question is:- how do you get experience building fireworks if you can`t do it legally at home?

Yeah, I hope the admin on this site give permission for Spectrum to draft a few proposals for small manufacturing soon!

Transporting small quantities of untested fireworks is going to be an issue outside of ADR training.............this needs discussion!

The only other way around these problems, is to ditch the whole idea of home manufacture, and apply for business/education/community grants via the government to build or set aside firework making/teaching schools using military premises on a part-time basis?..........we could then perhaps store our fireworks there as well (providing we meet all the security requirements).

[pyrotechnist]

Building on other sites is all good and all but I aint sure if it will work out. The reasons why I say this are because people live all over the country and some of these places (if it happened) may not be near them 2) Why travel miles to build a fountain or rocket? which may need extra days to finish the item(s) off 3) You are going to have to make some sort of schedule to manage how many people can use the facilities. If we had an on site manufacturing license it will be great as we are in our own homes or close by to the place of manufacture and can make as many items as we want or what we want on a daily basis.

Earth mounds are good but for the quantities we want to build aren't really necessary. I think wood fencing or metal fencing like what Dean Fireworks uses is practical for us and also easier and cheaper to obtain and set up.

I personally do not want to keep hearing this bullshit from HSE 'The current manufacturing license is optimal for any type of manufacturing amount over 100g.' Maybe if you're rich but that is one thing I and probably many others are not. So I hope this can be changed soon and that we can get slacks like the rocket and re-enactment guys have. After all the re-enactment people are playing with guns which to me are more dangerous than fireworks (even if they are blanks).

[phildunford]

There seems to be some confusion between what I would call 'experimental work' and a small factory. To me there is a big difference between the two.

'Factory' to me implies production for sale and although there may be some who want to go that far, most won't...

Also the phrase 'back garden' seems to be causeing some contention. You would have to judge each garden on it's merits. Very small gardens with close neighbours would be a no-no, but there are very many gardens in which safe work could be carried out. To make this workable with HSE etc, safety distances would have to be established, but for small devices I would think these could be very modest...

[crystal palace fireworks]

There seems to be some confusion between what I would call 'experimental work' and a small factory. To me there is a big difference between the two.

'Factory' to me implies production for sale and although there may be some who want to go that far, most won't...

Also the phrase 'back garden' seems to be causeing some contention. You would have to judge each garden on it's merits. Very small gardens with close neighbours would be a no-no, but there are very many gardens in which safe work could be carried out. To make this workable with HSE etc, safety distances would have to be established, but for small devices I would think these could be very modest...

I think the legal interpretation of experimental and factory in making devices (fireworks) is the same as manufacture...........in other words you are making a firework device from processed or raw materials, and which are not tested, althought I agree in laymans terms...........to me a factory means producing fireworks for resale!

I use the term `back garden` to try and make the point that I think it is acceptable to make devices in a garden shed as opposed to in the home!..........where else are you going to make fireworks in a residential setting?

Yes, there needs to be safe distances (but what do people think is a small garden in the scale of things?), to convince the authorities we are serious, we must devise methods to make devices at home a realistic and affordable prospect for most of us........and not just those who have huge gardens!.................this is why there needs to be various options on design and placement of sheds, earth mounds etc for different layouts!

[crystal palace fireworks]

Building on other sites is all good and all but I aint sure if it will work out. The reasons why I say this are because people live all over the country and some of these places (if it happened) may not be near them 2) Why travel miles to build a fountain or rocket? which may need extra days to finish the item(s) off 3) You are going to have to make some sort of schedule to manage how many people can use the facilities. If we had an on site manufacturing license it will be great as we are in our own homes or close by to the place of manufacture and can make as many items as we want or what we want on a daily basis.

Earth mounds are good but for the quantities we want to build aren't really necessary. I think wood fencing or metal fencing like what Dean Fireworks uses is practical for us and also easier and cheaper to obtain and set up.

I personally do not want to keep hearing this bullshit from HSE 'The current manufacturing license is optimal for any type of manufacturing amount over 100g.' Maybe if you're rich but that is one thing I and probably many others are not. So I hope this can be changed soon and that we can get slacks like the rocket and re-enactment guys have. After all the re-enactment people are playing with guns which to me are more dangerous than fireworks (even if they are blanks).

What you have to remember is this:- the rocket and renactment guys buy there fuel motors (or gunpowder) from bonifida sources which are tested .........in other words.......unlike us experimental (firework makers) we make compounds from raw materials, so it going to be much difficult to get the same relaxed rules as them!...........(although I maybe wrong)

Tell me more about the Deans firework set up, and how it applies to us in making fireworks at residential premises?

[Arthur Brown]

Back garden manufacture is always going to need a large back garden!

Anyone who describes the HSE's rules as Bull Sh1t really isn't going to persuade them to be flexible.

[pyrotechnist]

Dean Fireworks is not in a back yard but on a small plot of land. It uses about 4 small sheds each separated with a wooden fence blast wall. Arthur when you say large back yard how large are you implying ? my yard is large with the back end having a large raised mud mound and 7' wooden fencing surrounding my yard. I do not have many houses around me luckily and just a large old mill behind my house which is a good distance away. If your yard is one of these very old Victorian types which are like 5 x 5 feet or something stupid then NO fireworks should be made there.

[starseeker]

Quite agree Phill,
i think that we will have to set our ideas to the HSE quite conservatively. Maybe we could ask for a 1kg max storage for comps,inc stars,b.p,rice hulls etc,(no storing of flash ).Max weight of any device to not exceed say 150g,and maybe no more than 1kg of finnished items.

It could be that we could sit a one day test (at our factory ) and when passed you could be issued with a ticket to prove your competence etc to enable you to carry on as to the above with out paying thousands for a full licence,in effect we would be self regulating.

Just my thoughts,what do you think,
regards.

As i said in my above post,we would have to aggree max article weights for exsperimentation,storage etc.
If the rocketry guys can store up to 5kg of motors etc,and work on there rockets in there work shop with no minimum stated safety distances etc,i do not see why we should not get some exemptions as long as we make it clear that we only want to make small devices and if {agreed upon max weight },they
did fail when testing,no harm would be done.

Any storage etc could be of such a type that even if it all all went up {highly unlightly }it would self contain.

Let us not be defeatist,but hopefull of a long term result.If you do not ask,you do not get!

[phildunford]

Let us not be defeatist,but hopefull of a long term result.If you do not ask,you do not get!

Here, here Starseeker!

I know in an open society (UKPS not UK!) there will always be differences of opinion, but we do seem to spend a lot of time trying to shoot ourselves in the foot!

Lets see what we CAN do...

[starseeker]

Here, here Starseeker!

I know in an open society (UKPS not UK!) there will always be differences of opinion, but we do seem to spend a lot of time trying to shoot ourselves in the foot!

Lets see what we CAN do...

It would be nice if we could get the ball rolling,now that you are well placed phil,i am looking forward to what the UKPS commitee's thoughts are on this.