52 replies to this topic

[wayne]

Hi Martyn,

There’s not a lot for me to add from Richard and diggers' diligent replies.

It simply amounts to the fact that we need to start at the beginning. As Richard points out this is with clarifying the current legislation and opening up communication channels with the appropriate authorities. This has all got to be executed in a professional manner whilst at all times pursuing realistic goals. If we initiated talks with the HSE requesting that we wanted concessions to make 6" shells in shed in our back garden, they would simply show us the door. Any concessions sought need to be realistic in the realms of health and safety, inevitably this will mean a lot of your requests will just never happen.

All that said, do remember that right now you can do exactly what you want - Simply apply to the HSE for a full manufacturing license!

Cheers,

Wayne.

Ok Richard I have slept on it and I realise I am flogging a dead horse. I just want to outline a few things and then I promise I WILL shut up.

I am a bit concerned by your comment -

"The committee I would to think has a very good awareness of what UKPS members would like to do - be able to experiment and keep within the legislation."

This is not what I would like to be able to do, and I honestly feel that it is not what many many other members want.

There are a few people on the forum, who may or may not be ukps members, who do enjoy experimenting for the challenge of developing new or variants of compositions, and good luck to them, I wish I were bright enough to do that.

I feel the vast majority however want, in addition, is to be able to build practical pyrotechnics, in very small quantities, say up to a few Kg's max, using standard comps and techniques, and rather than keep within the legislation, would like the legislation changed to allow them to do that.

The impression I got from the few people I chatted to at the agm was that they were in the build it and fire it camp. I thought that was what we were aiming for with the upcoming review - however I accept that I have misunderstood the intentions.

To be honest, if we just wanted to experiment with up to 100g of something, almost all of us could do that anyway in the privacy of our own wherever, without drawing any attention to ourselves whatsoever. I don't even think the authorities would be all that bothered provided we don't annoy others and obviously restrict the compositions to standard pyrotechnic type comps rather than anything which might detonate! Note - I am aware that 100g of bp or star comp is dangerous and needs to be handled appropriately.

I know I sound like a stuck record, but I can't for the life of me fathom out why the ukps is only, seemingly, going for clarification of the 100g thing?

There are a couple of approaches to following this hobby, one, which many understandably adopt, ( including myself previously) is to keep quiet and never stick your head above the parapet, and make and fire a bit of pyro around Nov and new year. Another is to take part in forum discussions and share knowledge and experience and hopefully everyone benefits and we become stronger, more knowledgeable and more credible as a group. Phil previously said that his heart sank when he saw the details of the IExpE exam, well now I know the feeling as I realise how little, in my opinion we are asking for from the review. And yes, I am aware of the comeback that if I think I can do better I should do it myself, but I don't, so I can't.

Yours guttedly

Martyn

PS please do keep us updated if there are any developments.

[Atom Fireworks]

Also Richard. I'd like to be allowed to ride my bike at 180mph when and where i like, if you get a minute can you make this happen too.

Ime with steve, ime sick of wearing one of these and being called " Ghost Rider" lmfao.

just incase you dont know.

On a more serious note i can appreciate people wanting more and being impatient but just look at our hobby from another persons point of view. I.E your next door neighbours, imagine what they would think if they knew you were knocking up kgs of stuff ( ime not saying anyone does), could you imagin the trouble that a ball mill loaded with a kg of bp could cause if it goes off in a garden shed? Too you and me we " know" we are doing everything as safely as possible but what if ????

Its only my opinion but i cannot see anything getting better for us, if anything the restrictions may get worse. The fact that the forum is watched yet the " Watchers" do not come through our front doors even tho they will know each and every one of us says allot.

Being sensible and responsible should be all you need to stay safe, and out of the radar.

Dumper

Edited by dumper truck, 30 June 2010 - 03:23 PM.

[pyrotechnist]

Maxman I read the articles you mentioned and I know its hard but a factory way out of site is a factory way enough not to be a danger to people, the closest residents will be farms or animals. You cannot go a head with something just because a few do gooders say no, especially the forsaken dog owners. Just an idea anyhow.

[exat808]

The fact that the forum is watched yet the " Watchers" do not come through our front doors even tho they will know each and every one of us says allot.

Being sensible and responsible should be all you need to stay safe, and out of the radar.

Dumper

I suppose that in my day job I am a "watcher". Many forums are subject to scrutiny for a variety of reasons. I use the forum as a source of background information to assist me in the processes of legislative information and guidance that I am involved with.
The conspiracy guys can read into this whatever.
Happy to discuss the position by PM but dont want to get embroiled in a "us and them" argument.

[starseeker]

Also Richard. I'd like to be allowed to ride my bike at 180mph when and where i like, if you get a minute can you make this happen too.

I thought the national speed limit was 180mph,

[phildunford]

Not alot I can add to this, but as you can see, the committees do watch what is said on the forums and do very much take it into account.

I think we may sometimes be guilty of not giving you enough feedback, but sometimes we are just waiting for replies ourselves and sometimes it could be damaging to reveal too much too soon.

As mentioned, anyone who wants to do more than give an opinion on the forum should contact Richard or myself and we will make every effort to see that you are included in the process.

I believe that the process will speed up in the run-up to MSER changes and the next year will probably be make or break.

We all want to drive at 180MPH, but just pop down the high street, grab the first person you see and say, "would you like the law changed so people can make fireworks in their back gardens?" - I think you know the answer you will get and government are only reflecting this concern. We have to convince them that what we want is (to borrow and expression) Safe & Sane before we will get anywhere.

[Peret]

We have to convince them that what we want is (to borrow and expression) Safe & Sane before we will get anywhere.

OMG, don't use that expression! Not unless you want to be restricted to sparklers, smoke balls and party poppers - and certain excited persons have got their eye on the deadly dangerous sparklers now. "Safe and Sane" = "Naif and Lame".

[Potassium chlorate]

OMG, don't use that expression! Not unless you want to be restricted to sparklers, smoke balls and party poppers - and certain excited persons have got their eye on the deadly dangerous sparklers now. "Safe and Sane" = "Naif and Lame".

Agreed. You won't get any rights from a defensive position.

In a democracy the ones demanding bans and restrictions should have to justify their cause, not the other way around.

Edited by Pyroswede, 02 July 2010 - 04:12 PM.

[digger]

I thought the national speed limit was 180mph,

I have just got back from Germany, well they do drive fast there. Blinkin eck look in the mirror no-one, then woosh.

[maxman]

Yeah its great driving in Germany. I've never seen road works, queues, speed cameras , or any hold ups. Its hard to spot a police car too, yet here its pure chaos

Maxman

[phildunford]

Agreed. You won't get any rights from a defensive position.

Boys - come back to planet earth, unless we put forward a case that is seen as safe for our neighbours & the general public, we won't get anything except a reputation for being reckless. We are a very minor irritant to the authorities & frankly I'm amazed we have even got on the HSE committee. You need to take a step back and realise how the activities we love are perceived by 99.99999 percent of the population!

I would love all the concessions there are going, but I have also negotiated with government on other issues & it's hard to get things that the majority of people want, let alone a tiny minority.

I don't concern myself directly with the work of the documentation committee, because given that I must spend 50% of my spare time working on other stuff for UKPS, there are not enough hours in the day. I do however trust that the committee are good people making their best efforts to get us the best deal they can - don't expect the impossible though!

[pyrotechnist]

Government never listen to us period! they wont even listen to millions of voters on a poll and still go a head with the crap they do or preach.

[Vic]

I would say if we get any concessions it would be a remarkable feat for the UKPS to achieve.
Just to say, I for one am very grateful for what the society is trying to do.

Edited by fflach, 02 July 2010 - 08:18 PM.

[exat808]

Boys - come back to planet earth, unless we put forward a case that is seen as safe for our neighbours & the general public, we won't get anything except a reputation for being reckless. We are a very minor irritant to the authorities & frankly I'm amazed we have even got on the HSE committee. You need to take a step back and realise how the activities we love are perceived by 99.99999 percent of the population!

I would love all the concessions there are going, but I have also negotiated with government on other issues & it's hard to get things that the majority of people want, let alone a tiny minority.

I don't concern myself directly with the work of the documentation committee, because given that I must spend 50% of my spare time working on other stuff for UKPS, there are not enough hours in the day. I do however trust that the committee are good people making their best efforts to get us the best deal they can - don't expect the impossible though!

Agree with above comments - the reality ( in my opinion) is that the following options are available to UKPS ( and any other individual or group):-
1. operate within existing legislative requirements
or
2. influence change in legislation by means of lobbying and well presented submissions - but in doing this be prepared to concede or modify some of your aspirations
or
3.operate outside of existing legislation and accept without complaint the results of any enforcement action taken against you.

Simples .........

[exat808]

Government never listen to us period! they wont even listen to millions of voters on a poll and still go a head with the crap they do or preach.

But in 2005 the HSE listened to the voice of the British Cave Research Association (Explosives User Group), a group far smaller than UKPS, and they achieved a "small quantities" exemption in MSER for a very restricted hobby group,
In 2008/9 the UK Rocketry Assoc lobbied the HSE and gained 2 legislative exemptions for their leisure activity.
In 2008 the Gun Trade Assoc lobbied the HSE and gained a vast reduction in fees for their explosives certificates and licenses.

It can be done, but it has to be done appropiately.