52 replies to this topic

[Peret]

Boys - come back to planet earth, unless we put forward a case that is seen as safe for our neighbours & the general public, we won't get anything except a reputation for being reckless. We are a very minor irritant to the authorities & frankly I'm amazed we have even got on the HSE committee. You need to take a step back and realise how the activities we love are perceived by 99.99999 percent of the population!

I think there are too many nines in that number. There's a vocal hostile fringe of the "Daily Mail" type but it's not a majority. What's missing is the balancing pro-pyro vocal fringe that appears to have been intimidated into silence.

The problem is, if you go in with the clear intention to concede, you will. If you lead with the words "Safe and Sane you'll get -
- nothing that bangs
- nothing that flies
- nothing that shoots flaming balls
... In fact nothing worth doing at all. And then when you go back again later for more, they'll say "we already gave you what you wanted, clear off."

[exat808]

Is there anyone here who has a license to manufacture? if so would you mind saying how much it cost for the license and the total cost etc?

The fees for all H&S regulations are determined annually by another set of regulations.
Currently the fees set by the Health and Safety (Fees) Regulations 2010 are -
For a licence to manufacture explosives £631
plus
For every hour worked on the application by a specialist inspector it is £127 per hour

The application process for a licence to manufacture (irrespective of the size of the operation) is subject to a local authority assent process. This is not a planning process but it allows persons or undertakings that may be affected by the application to make representations only on the grounds of Health and Safety matters. Applications must be notified in the press.
There is also planning consent to consider. Change of use permissions etc.
It is not for the faint hearted!

Just added - these processes under MSER 2005 have hardly changed from the way that they were dealt with under the 1875 Act - we cant moan that new regs have disadvantaged those who wish to establish licensed manufacturing sites.

Edited by exat808, 03 July 2010 - 10:57 AM.

[pyrotechnist]

Now lets hope they dont take tea breaks while working on that said license, how many hours do they work on the license does anyone know? robbing gits.

[exat808]

Now lets hope they dont take tea breaks while working on that said license, how many hours do they work on the license does anyone know? robbing gits.

The time spent on any application will vary greatly depending on the complexity of the task. Things to consider will be how many site visits will the inspector have to make, will he/she have to prepare a case for an assent hearing, how complex will the actual license document be etc etc.

[exat808]

Now lets hope they dont take tea breaks while working on that said license, how many hours do they work on the license does anyone know? robbing gits.

Forgot to add - that any fee payable must be paid in full before the the result of the application is known. So you can spend a fortune only to find that your application has been refused.

[Arthur Brown]

If you were to engage a solicitor from one of the nation's top 50 companies then their fee would probably have a nought added onto the HSE fee, £1270 an hour.

[phildunford]

I think there are too many nines in that number.

Would love to think you are right...

There are two different issues getting confused here. What we allowed to purchase and fire as the general public and the making of fireworks.

On the first point the UK is actually not too badly off compared to many countries, including parts of the USA. We are not currently really looking at this. There is a comparitively small 'Daily Mail' opposition to fireworks in general.

If you asked the general public if the law should be changed to allow 'back garden manufacture' (in a house next to theirs) my number of 9's is probably wildly optimistic!

Fortunately we don't have to ask the public, it's the HSE we must convince.

[Potassium chlorate]

Do you really have that many idiots in the UK? In Sweden there are a few anti-pyro idiots, but they're a minority which mainly consists of hysterical dog owners, a few journalists and politicians. The problem is that they are loud-mouthed and that the bureaucrats at different authorities and politicians in the parliament listen to them.

There are also a few idiots using fireworks as "weapons" against the cops etc, but instead of busting the idiots they punish the 99.99% of relatively responsible buyers of consumers fireworks, like they did when they banned firecrackers and 4" mortars some years ago.

Edited by Pyroswede, 03 July 2010 - 02:22 PM.

[pyrotechnist]

Take pyro away from the idiots and they will use petrol bombs or other means so they wont rid the problem unless they rid the idiots. I hate dog owners who try saying their dogs get scared, BULSHIT, I have two dogs and two dogs living next to me and they love fireworks, dam my sibe just goes to sleep and my other dog gets all excited around them. The two staffs next door just go to sleep IF they aint barking . Should ban the bloody do gooder dog owners not pyro and while we are at it ban chavs lol.

[exat808]

If you asked the general public if the law should be changed to allow 'back garden manufacture' (in a house next to theirs) my number of 9's is probably wildly optimistic!

It really is a matter of a balanced approach and understanding the hazards arising from any activity.
Those who may worry about the activities of a neighbour in their garden shed may be just the person who leaves the chip pan on or falls asleep in bed with a cigarette.
Why dont we get people worrying that every flat in an apartment block or every house in a terraced row may have at least one 15kg gas bottle inside, and how many domestic garages have cans of fuel, solvents, chemicals of many varieties inside? - totally uncontrolled! I feel a letter to my MP coming on!

[Potassium chlorate]

Take pyro away from the idiots and they will use petrol bombs or other means so they wont rid the problem unless they rid the idiots. I hate dog owners who try saying their dogs get scared, BULSHIT, I have two dogs and two dogs living next to me and they love fireworks, dam my sibe just goes to sleep and my other dog gets all excited around them. The two staffs next door just go to sleep IF they aint barking . Should ban the bloody do gooder dog owners not pyro and while we are at it ban chavs lol.

Exactly my point. An idiot is an idiot. If he can't get hold of a gun or a pyro device, he surely will get hold of something else that he can misuse.

In the old days, before this sickening nanny state existed in about every country in the Western world, they did just that: put away the idiots. They didn't ban or restrict things for sane, law-abiding people.

[digger]

A quick reply to a couple of comments (bear in mind I have had a few beers)

Yes it is straight forward to get through the licencing legislation, after all it is prescriptive. So follow the rules as laid out and there should not be a problem. The money side of it, it sounds steep, but how many have a sports bike for a bit of fun? That could be up to 10K plus maybe another 2K per year in running costs (tyres, leathers, insurance etc etc).

The bitch is finding a suitable site and then the planning which is can lets face it can be down to a matter of opinion and a load of NIMBY activists.

Lets not get too carried away, we have enough legislation protecting people from themselves lets not wish for any more (yes I know the original comment was tongue in cheek).

The Daily Wail readers, mmm, surely they will be the first to complain once something is changed that affects them. Lets have dog license's introduced and a statutory test to ensure that they have the appropriate premises for their animal so that it does not become distressed and bark all day long.

[crystal palace fireworks]

Perhaps another way to look at this is;

We should back the documentation committee on creating a small manufacturing license for home (shed) hobbyists up to a agreeable limit on powder quantities in line with gun club legislation.

And then at a later date, work towards creating a small commercial pyro license for start up businesses after we have established a pyro school for training, I think there also could be room to lobby government for the reduction of business rates for 5 years, and on tax/NI breaks when employing two or more persons.

We have to convince government that it will create jobs in our sector, and increase reliability and safety standards compared to the chinese.

We could also work towards campaigning for import quotas on pyro products from outside the EU, this could be achieved by so as not to affect the supply for UK display companies.

[exat808]

Perhaps another way to look at this is;

We should back the documentation committee on creating a small manufacturing license for home (shed) hobbyists up to a agreeable limit on powder quantities in line with gun club legislation.

And then at a later date, work towards creating a small commercial pyro license for start up businesses after we have established a pyro school for training, I think there also could be room to lobby government for the reduction of business rates for 5 years, and on tax/NI breaks when employing two or more persons.

We have to convince government that it will create jobs in our sector, and increase reliability and safety standards compared to the chinese.

We could also work towards campaigning for import quotas on pyro products from outside the EU, this could be achieved by so as not to affect the supply for UK display companies.

As with previous posts from UKPS members there must ( in my opinion) be a full understanding of what exactly is required. My understanding is that the committee are seeking the following from the HSE -
1. A clear definition of the terms used in MSER 2005 relating to the manufacture of small quantities of explosives.
2. The opportunity for legally defined organisations such as UKPS to run a manufacturing facility
3.The ability for an individual to manufacture explosives in quantities greater than currently permitted but not for sale or practical use


A small pyro factory license in line with that formerly available under the 1875 Act would be very very prescriptive - number of buildings on site, quantity of explosives per building, strictly defined distances from dwellings, roads, public buildings - and a fee!

Those seeking what was previously available should be aware of all the legislative requirements that accompanied such a license and not just "cherry pick" the good bits.

[dr thrust]

hmm thinking realistically i don't think the "hobbyist" will ever be aloud the knock up pyro in his/her garden shed, there's just to many safety issues to factor in.
number two on your list looks achievable, i central ukps manufacturing site, although a few hours traveling for some including me, would be a great opportunity, if youve got to get up early hit the road and a bit of camping weekend so be it.
most day trips involve traveling!

Edited by chris m, 03 July 2010 - 11:17 PM.