52 replies to this topic

[martyn]

It really is a matter of a balanced approach and understanding the hazards arising from any activity.
Those who may worry about the activities of a neighbour in their garden shed may be just the person who leaves the chip pan on or falls asleep in bed with a cigarette.
Why dont we get people worrying that every flat in an apartment block or every house in a terraced row may have at least one 15kg gas bottle inside, and how many domestic garages have cans of fuel, solvents, chemicals of many varieties inside? - totally uncontrolled! I feel a letter to my MP coming on!

Or 15 kg of 'gunpowder' in a plywood box in 550g plastic bottles in a cupboard under the stairs. Used to manufacture a device consisting of a powder chage in a tube that blasts out dozens of hard metal balls. Often with the intention of killing something.

Edited by martyn, 04 July 2010 - 12:53 AM.

[Potassium chlorate]

Or 15 kg of 'gunpowder' in a plywood box in 550g plastic bottles in a cupboard under the stairs. Used to manufacture a device consisting of a powder chage in a tube that blasts out dozens of hard metal balls. Often with the intention of killing something.

One absurd thing I have found out is that many hunters are anti-pyros, at least in my neighbourhood. I don't get it. It's OK for them when it says "BANG" and they kill an animal, that hasn't the shadow of a chance to defend itself, but it's horrible when someone sets off something that says "BANG" and is beautiful to watch and made for peoples' amusement.

[crystal palace fireworks]

As with previous posts from UKPS members there must ( in my opinion) be a full understanding of what exactly is required. My understanding is that the committee are seeking the following from the HSE -
1. A clear definition of the terms used in MSER 2005 relating to the manufacture of small quantities of explosives.
2. The opportunity for legally defined organisations such as UKPS to run a manufacturing facility
3.The ability for an individual to manufacture explosives in quantities greater than currently permitted but not for sale or practical use


A small pyro factory license in line with that formerly available under the 1875 Act would be very very prescriptive - number of buildings on site, quantity of explosives per building, strictly defined distances from dwellings, roads, public buildings - and a fee!

Those seeking what was previously available should be aware of all the legislative requirements that accompanied such a license and not just "cherry pick" the good bits.

To me, there has to be some amendments to MSER 2005 legislation before we start talking about distances and types of building structures, material construction, and other forms of containment methods to incorporate a hobbyist firework manufacturing in his garden shed, otherwise it seems to me that you are saying we (UKPS) are wasting our time in pursuing this cause under current MSER guidelines.

Question; Is there any data/information from the EIG/explosives expectorate on actual testing of small quantities of black powder in a confined space using sand bags as a containment field with respect to using say less than one or two kilo`s?. My thoughts are; we can only move forward on this if we prove that the testing was successful.

Edited by crystal palace fireworks, 04 July 2010 - 11:14 AM.

[exat808]

To me, there has to be some amendments to MSER 2005 legislation before we start talking about distances and types of building structures, material construction, and other forms of containment methods to incorporate a hobbyist firework manufacturing in his garden shed, otherwise it seems to me that you are saying we (UKPS) are wasting our time in pursuing this cause under current MSER guidelines.

Question; Is there any data/information from the EIG/explosives expectorate on actual testing of small quantities of black powder in a confined space using sand bags as a containment field with respect to using say less than one or two kilo`s?. My thoughts are; we can only move forward on this if we prove that the testing was successful.

You are not wasting your time. The UKPS are seeking to influence changes in MSER that will clarify the position of the person who wishes to make small quantities and beyond this they will explore issues with the HSE on how small manufacturing facilities can be accepted under MSER

Yes - the HSE through its laboratory at Buxton tested confined and unconfined BP a few years ago in order to determine how MSER was going to permit up to 15kg to be kept unlicensed in dwellings. I have the DVD somewhere. Its not on general release but I may be able to extract some clips

Edited by exat808, 04 July 2010 - 11:23 AM.

[crystal palace fireworks]

You are not wasting your time. The UKPS are seeking to influence changes in MSER that will clarify the position of the person who wishes to make small quantities and beyond this they will explore issues with the HSE on how small manufacturing facilities can be accepted under MSER

Yes - the HSE through its laboratory at Buxton tested confined and unconfined BP a few years ago in order to determine how MSER was going to permit up to 15kg to be kept unlicensed in dwellings. I have the DVD somewhere. Its not on general release but I may be able to extract some clips

Thanks exat808, clips of the testing and its data would be very helpful to the UKPS in determining the direction/stance of proposals.

[exat808]

what i find interesting to all the places that can manufacture pyro at the the moment cant make black power and yet flash is ok, so does this mean if we can get the small manufacturing licence back, will this open the doors to even the pyro manufactures here in the uk to be allowed to make bp, because they cant expect people to have to buy bp.


i think if anything flash should be more tightened and bp relaxed

Lots of issues relating to manufacture of BP.

Users in the UK currently would be -
1 Soft rock and dimension stone quarries
2 Re-enactors/home loaders/muzzle loading weapon users
3 Pyro makers
4 Model rocket users

I believe that there is not sufficient demand across the board from all these users to warrant a domestic source of BP. Certainly the commercial users will be finacially driven and care not where it is made.
You may persuade some of the purist re-enactors to use British BP in their guns and cannons but once again it has to be down to cost. Some groups may go through a few hundred kilos in a summer season others may measure their use in tens of kilos.

Another perspective is that of classification. Generally speaking most pyro is classified as UN 1.4 or 1.3 ( I know that 1.1 articles are out there) and therefore under MSER the distances to be maintained when manufacturing and storing HT3 and HT4 are far less per kg than HT1. BP is classified UN 1.1 and attracts higher distances when stored. Also if storing BP with any pyro in HT3 or HT4 the entire quantity has to be treated as HT1 - for example 25kg of HT4 pyro alone requires no separation distance but add 1 kg of BP and you have 26kg of HT1 which needs separation.

I agree with the comment re flash. I have a healthy respect for it. I use it in moderate quantities in demonstrations and have witnessed its destructive power many times when it burns to a speed equivalent to a detonation.
There have been moves over the years for stricter legislative control on flash - but if it comes it will come with a price - namely certification of the individual and registration/licensing of the store.
Another dilemma here?

[martyn]

Lots of issues relating to manufacture of BP.

Users in the UK currently would be -
1 Soft rock and dimension stone quarries
2 Re-enactors/home loaders/muzzle loading weapon users
3 Pyro makers
4 Model rocket users

I believe that there is not sufficient demand across the board from all these users to warrant a domestic source of BP. Certainly the commercial users will be finacially driven and care not where it is made.
You may persuade some of the purist re-enactors to use British BP in their guns and cannons but once again it has to be down to cost. Some groups may go through a few hundred kilos in a summer season others may measure their use in tens of kilos.

Another perspective is that of classification. Generally speaking most pyro is classified as UN 1.4 or 1.3 ( I know that 1.1 articles are out there) and therefore under MSER the distances to be maintained when manufacturing and storing HT3 and HT4 are far less per kg than HT1. BP is classified UN 1.1 and attracts higher distances when stored. Also if storing BP with any pyro in HT3 or HT4 the entire quantity has to be treated as HT1 - for example 25kg of HT4 pyro alone requires no separation distance but add 1 kg of BP and you have 26kg of HT1 which needs separation.

I agree with the comment re flash. I have a healthy respect for it. I use it in moderate quantities in demonstrations and have witnessed its destructive power many times when it burns to a speed equivalent to a detonation.
There have been moves over the years for stricter legislative control on flash - but if it comes it will come with a price - namely certification of the individual and registration/licensing of the store.
Another dilemma here?

AND another thing!!!!!
The reloader who is using 15 Kg of BP on his kitchen table, which he stores in a wooden box under his babys cot, can transport it (after he has obtained his free pomster (RCA) document), in the back of his estate car covered with an old mac. In fact, a 16 year old can take 2Kg of it in his pockets on a bus!!!! grrrrrr.