[darkfang77]

Hello all,
I have been browsing barium suppliers for my pyro chems, but I have found out from a supplier that barium (nitrate) is a schedule 1 poison, and other barium compounds (carbonate), are schedule 2 poisons.
Thus, I will require a business VAT number to purchase, this has thrown some doubt into the legality of home pyrotechnics.
Is barium illegal to possess? and is it illegal to purchase from a supplier who does not have a license whatsoever to sell the stuff?
What do suppliers actually do with the VAT no. supplied? Asking because I don't want a business to get into trouble should I convince them to buy it for me.

Whilst we're on the subject, I do understand that pyrotechnic mixtures are illegal to have, unless in "small amounts", up to the discretion of the LA.
What about pure chemicals, such as perchlorates on its own, I know KNO3 is OK to have.
And is there any age limit as to who can handle potentially explosive chemicals, like perchlorates again?

Finally, for the people who store stars mixtures, BP, Flash Powder at home, would that mean you would get into legal troubles should someone from the L. Council make an unannounced visit to your home?

This post has been edited by darkfang77: 02 September 2010 - 05:07 PM

[RFD]

I cant vouch for oxidizers but BP does require a acquire and keep explosives license and to transport BP requires a document from the HSE,these are free from the police and HSE with certain storage requirements.

[phildunford]

If you do a bit of a search of the forum, you will find that these issues have been talked about at some length!

As it stands, you are breaking the law by putting any mixture into a working firework. We are trying to improve this situation.

Generally unless you annoy people, no one is going to come to your home and look at anything.

[darkfang77]

phildunford, on 02 September 2010 - 05:45 PM, said:

If you do a bit of a search of the forum, you will find that these issues have been talked about at some length!

As it stands, you are breaking the law by putting any mixture into a working firework. We are trying to improve this situation.

Generally unless you annoy people, no one is going to come to your home and look at anything.

I am mainly concerned about the barium bit, nothing re. pyrotechnics seem to cover it, and I am currently reading the poisons act to see if there is anything related to "schedule 1" poisons and the general public. Good to know that something is being done to improve the situation.

I would also like to ask how you guys are getting hold of the stuff, from how do you acquire a VAT number to purchase barium with? and I mean legally!

This post has been edited by darkfang77: 02 September 2010 - 09:46 PM

[StephF]

darkfang77, on 02 September 2010 - 05:57 PM, said:

I am mainly concerned about the barium bit, nothing re. pyrotechnics seem to cover it, and I am currently reading the poisons act to see if there is anything related to "schedule 1" poisons and the general public. Good to know that something is being done to improve the situation.

I would also like to ask how you guys are getting hold of the stuff, from how do you acquire a VAT number to purchase barium with? and I mean legally!

I came across the following link that states:

Quote

Nothing in the Poisons Act 1972 applies to ..... Fireworks

http://www.devon.gov...of_guidance.pdf

VAT numbers are obtained from HM Revenue & Customs but you have to be a registered business in order to register for VAT.

Forming a company legally isn't much work but there are a heap of legal requirements that you have to comply with once you register as a director of a company. E.g Annual returns, accounting records, business banking.

This post has been edited by StephF: 03 September 2010 - 10:58 AM

[crystal palace fireworks]

darkfang77, on 02 September 2010 - 05:57 PM, said:

I am mainly concerned about the barium bit, nothing re. pyrotechnics seem to cover it, and I am currently reading the poisons act to see if there is anything related to "schedule 1" poisons and the general public. Good to know that something is being done to improve the situation.

I would also like to ask how you guys are getting hold of the stuff, from how do you acquire a VAT number to purchase barium with? and I mean legally!

Have a read of the `Poisons Act 1972`, I can`t comment on your legality to buy or aquire barium nitrate, but you will almost certainly need to contact & register with your local council for a licence regarding poisons under schedule 1, this will probably mean adhering to requirements under COSHH, and contact with the occupational health authorities.

http://www.opsi.gov....a_19720066_en_1

This post has been edited by crystal palace fireworks: 03 September 2010 - 11:35 AM

[darkfang77]

crystal palace fireworks, on 03 September 2010 - 11:34 AM, said:

Have a read of the `Poisons Act 1972`, I can`t comment on your legality to buy or aquire barium nitrate, but you will almost certainly need to contact & register with your local council for a licence regarding poisons under schedule 1, this will probably mean adhering to requirements under COSHH, and contact with the occupational health authorities.

http://www.opsi.gov....a_19720066_en_1

That's the one I have been reading!
Having a full on license just to buy a little bit of barium nitrate seems far fetched, what do they think I am going to do with it?!
I'm sorry, but how do you guys get hold the of the stuff?

[crystal palace fireworks]

darkfang77, on 03 September 2010 - 12:14 PM, said:

That's the one I have been reading!
Having a full on license just to buy a little bit of barium nitrate seems far fetched, what do they think I am going to do with it?!
I'm sorry, but how do you guys get hold the of the stuff?

I can understand your frustration upto a point. The subject of poisonous compounds in small quantities with relation to firework hobbyist manufacturing, and who can aquire, store, buy, or use them is a subject that the explosive & chemistry experts within the UKPS will attempt to address in the coming years.

I guess there has to be some form of registration for safety & competence reasons, otherwise there could be problems with handling, misuse, security, or disposal which infringes on other legal issues.

Most of the bonafide purchasing of these poisons is done through industry scientific labs, health authorities, schools, medical institutions, dentists, doctors etc.

You can`t register for VAT unless your in business, but if you are, you are required by law if your business turns over £70.000 +, but you can still voluntarily register if your turnover is less.

This post has been edited by crystal palace fireworks: 03 September 2010 - 02:21 PM

[dr thrust]

if yer cant buy it , make it barium nitrate i think your getting to hung up on the details,buy/make a small amount conduct your experiment, post the results, move on

[darkfang77]

chris m, on 03 September 2010 - 04:05 PM, said:

if yer cant buy it , make it barium nitrate i think your getting to hung up on the details,buy/make a small amount conduct your experiment, post the results, move on

Unfortunately, barium carbonate is still a poison, and I would still need the VAT number to get it from a company, apart from eBay, I agreee it would be a very neat experiment to try out, but let me be plain. The only way I can get a cheap source of nitric acid is by buying a good 5 litres of it. What am I going to do with the rest? Use it as vinegar?

Long shot: anyone here with surplus of barium/strontium they're willing to supply?

Edit: Forgot to add I'm willing to pay a price, provided its reasonable!

This post has been edited by darkfang77: 03 September 2010 - 04:21 PM

[dr thrust]

wrong! barium carbonate is freely available for all to buy Freely from pottery suppliers

[darkfang77]

chris m, on 03 September 2010 - 04:30 PM, said:

wrong! barium carbonate is freely available for all to buy Freely from pottery suppliers

That's strange, the guy who refused to sell me barium nitrate said that all barium compounds (save for sulphate) are poisons.
I am still waiting for a reply from the supplier, with a bit of luck, he'll reply and something will work out.

Off the topic: on average, how much do you spend on each batch of pyro chemicals? Gives me an idea whether i'm ambitious or not.

[Peret]

All soluble barium compounds are poisonous. The carbonate is insoluble and therefore strictly speaking not poisonous, so it can be purchased, but it reacts with stomach acid if you eat it and makes a soluble poisonous compound. Barium sulfate is insoluble and doesn't react with acids, hence first aid for barium poisoning is a large dose of Epsom Salts (magnesium sulfate) to precipitate it. Having said that, barium is only toxic on the same scale as lead, and unlike lead is quickly eliminated from the body, so unless you ingest a heaping teaspoonful at a sitting the worst you might suffer from one incident is a headache. You could make barium nitrate by reacting the carbonate with nitric acid, assuming you can get that.

I'm in the US. Some suppliers here are touchy about barium nitrate and won't ship it mail order, others don't seem to have a problem. I couldn't get it until I found one of the latter suppliers but then I bought a year's supply in case the source dried up, and some barium chlorate as well just because I could - I'm glad I did - best green EVER. Now I only use the nitrate for whites. Legally there's no problem here, just shippers' regulations about what they're prepared to handle.

On average, every time I pull out my credit card to order pyro chemicals or other supplies (fuse, tubes, shells etc) I spend about $150 (US).

[a_bab]

While barium carbonate is quite poisonous (few grams ingested will kill you for sure), it is also used in pottery, and pottery people know about this issue and generally don't spice up their dish with it. Kind of like the availability of lead minium: very poisonous, but available as a paint pigment.

As about spending for chems, it really depends. A hardcore amateur pyro could spend as much as hundreds per year; some others could go for much less. Just a few bottle rockes with few TT stars won't cost alot.

Whatever you do, while aquiring some chems could be a legal activity, from the moment you start mixing them up you'd be doing an illegal activity. The risks to be caught are only determined by 3 factors: other people being annoyed and reporting you, being reported by the seller of the chems or worst case scenario - an accident, with you or other(s) being victims. This will surely stir the media and such.

Getting legal is possible, but most people don't do it as it could be very expensive and complicated. Instead, they just go along with their hobby, probably for a lifetime. Some would also quit it in a few years, when family issues kick in and "real life" takes over. I suspect there are very few members here with a family and children having this hobby and not making a living out of it. Most of the members would be teenagers, in the search of a "cool" activity.

[RFD]

I'm sure smaller amounts of nitric are available,ie ebay and numerous chem suppliers,it may just take a bit of time asking,emailing etc suppliers if they will supply,there also a few good pyro chem suppliers that will supply, usually ordering various pyro items instills a bit of confidence in the supplier to think that what you want is for pyro,many of us have spent years finding supplys for what unfortunately is basically an underground hobby,until things change any thing more than 100g of composition is illegal and as Phil has posted making devices ie fireworks is going to be handcuff territory,theres no instant fix for pyro chems,struggling to find them is part of the challenge,getting to know people in the hobby makes a big difference,not easy i know cause we lurk in dusty sheds an smell of sulphur,the legality of it all is a case of how much you want do the hobby and take a risk,apart from the pros we are all in the same boat,providing nobody makes it obvious i think we get left alone,has anybody on here had a visit from the plod,i doubt it.