35 replies to this topic

[darkfang77]

You could make barium nitrate by reacting the carbonate with nitric acid, assuming you can get that.
On average, every time I pull out my credit card to order pyro chemicals or other supplies (fuse, tubes, shells etc) I spend about $150 (US)

Hoho, I don't have the gear to make barium nitrate, wouldn't be worthwhile anyway, too expensive to buy both nitric acid and carbonate to make a smaller yield of nitrate.

Whatever you do, while aquiring some chems could be a legal activity, from the moment you start mixing them up you'd be doing an illegal activity. The risks to be caught are only determined by 3 factors: other people being annoyed and reporting you, being reported by the seller of the chems or worst case scenario - an accident, with you or other(s) being victims. This will surely stir the media and such.

I'm sorry, but sellers can report you for this?? Why and how? Surely if they're offering it for sale, they won't report people for buying it!
Does that mean I can trust no-one? From what you say, does that mean that everyone in the forum are criminals?

I'm sure smaller amounts of nitric are available,ie ebay and numerous chem suppliers,it may just take a bit of time asking,emailing etc suppliers if they will supply,there also a few good pyro chem suppliers that will supply, usually ordering various pyro items instills a bit of confidence in the supplier to think that what you want is for pyro,many of us have spent years finding supplys for what unfortunately is basically an underground hobby,until things change any thing more than 100g of composition is illegal and as Phil has posted making devices ie fireworks is going to be handcuff territory,theres no instant fix for pyro chems,struggling to find them is part of the challenge,getting to know people in the hobby makes a big difference,not easy i know cause we lurk in dusty sheds an smell of sulphur,the legality of it all is a case of how much you want do the hobby and take a risk,apart from the pros we are all in the same boat,providing nobody makes it obvious i think we get left alone,has anybody on here had a visit from the plod,i doubt it.

Right, for the record, I'm too young for a visit from Mr Plod .
When you say fireworks, do sparkler count?? By definition, what can they call a firework?
You're confusing me now, >100 grams of composition is illegal, but <100 is not? So 100 grams of BP is legal, but putting it into a fountain is not?
Has anyone actually been busted? In all my years of newsreading I must say I have never heard of this before.

Edit: I have read a few threads regarding storage of BP and stuff, and here's the paragraph that have caught my eye:


the manufacture of explosives for the purpose of laboratory analysis, testing, demonstration or experimentation (but not for practical use or sale) where the total quantity of explosives being manufactured at any time does not exceed 100 grams, but nothing in this sub-paragraph shall be taken as authorising any acquisition or keeping of explosives for which an explosives certificate is required by virtue of regulation 7 of those Regulations, without such a certificate;


So in theory, I can make up to 100 grams at a time, but say I made a variety of compounds, say 150 grams total, but I made 50 grams at a time, illegal or not?


10.—(1) Subject to paragraph (2), no person shall store explosives unless he holds a licence for their storage and complies with the conditions of that licence.
(2) Paragraph (1) shall not apply to —no more than 10 kilograms of black powder;


Not trying to push the boundaries, but does that mean that, as long as I make 100 grams at a time, people are theoretically allowed to store 10 kg of the stuff?

Main point here, I can't find anything which says that people aren't allowed to make fireworks, can anyone highlight this for me?

Edited by darkfang77, 04 September 2010 - 03:43 PM.

[exat808]

Hoho, I don't have the gear to make barium nitrate, wouldn't be worthwhile anyway, too expensive to buy both nitric acid and carbonate to make a smaller yield of nitrate.



I'm sorry, but sellers can report you for this?? Why and how? Surely if they're offering it for sale, they won't report people for buying it!
Does that mean I can trust no-one? From what you say, does that mean that everyone in the forum are criminals?




Right, for the record, I'm too young for a visit from Mr Plod .
When you say fireworks, do sparkler count?? By definition, what can they call a firework?
You're confusing me now, >100 grams of composition is illegal, but <100 is not? So 100 grams of BP is legal, but putting it into a fountain is not?
Has anyone actually been busted? In all my years of newsreading I must say I have never heard of this before.

Edit: I have read a few threads regarding storage of BP and stuff, and here's the paragraph that have caught my eye:


the manufacture of explosives for the purpose of laboratory analysis, testing, demonstration or experimentation (but not for practical use or sale) where the total quantity of explosives being manufactured at any time does not exceed 100 grams, but nothing in this sub-paragraph shall be taken as authorising any acquisition or keeping of explosives for which an explosives certificate is required by virtue of regulation 7 of those Regulations, without such a certificate;


So in theory, I can make up to 100 grams at a time, but say I made a variety of compounds, say 150 grams total, but I made 50 grams at a time, illegal or not?


10.—(1) Subject to paragraph (2), no person shall store explosives unless he holds a licence for their storage and complies with the conditions of that licence.
(2) Paragraph (1) shall not apply to —no more than 10 kilograms of black powder;


Not trying to push the boundaries, but does that mean that, as long as I make 100 grams at a time, people are theoretically allowed to store 10 kg of the stuff?

Main point here, I can't find anything which says that people aren't allowed to make fireworks, can anyone highlight this for me?

manufacture side first - The 100gram allowance has been interpreted by HSE to allow for that quantity of explosive to be made, then tested, analysed or demonstrated before moving on to producing another 100gram sample. Additionally the HSE have taken a view that each 100gram sample manufactured under this exemption should be materially different from the next. The purpose being here is to allow for the development of explosive substances in laboratory conditions. UKPS has prepared a document on this matter that will be submitted to HSE as part of an ongoing review of explosives legislation

black powder - having determined that any substance you manufacture under the 100gram exemption cannot be stored for future use, the argument for you keeping 10kg of it in unlicensed storage is not going to happen. Additionally black powder is specifically defined in MSER 2005 as being the substances allocated the UN numbers 0027 and 0028. To satisfy the unlicensed keeping provision you would have to submit your home made black powder to HSE in an approved package in order that it can be tested in accordance with the UN criteria and allocated a UN number.

and finally - to acquire and/or keep black powder you also require a certificate issued under Control of Explosives Regulations 1991

MSER 2005 does not say anywhere that you cant make fireworks - what it does say is that to make any explosive article or substances in quantities greater than 100grams for the purposes specified will require the person doing that act of manufacture to be licensed.

Simples!

Edited by exat808, 04 September 2010 - 05:37 PM.

[darkfang77]

manufacture side first - The 100gram allowance has been interpreted by HSE to allow for that quantity of explosive to be made, then tested, analysed or demonstrated before moving on to producing another 100gram sample. Additionally the HSE have taken a view that each 100gram sample manufactured under this exemption should be materially different from the next. The purpose being here is to allow for the development of explosive substances in laboratory conditions. UKPS has prepared a document on this matter that will be submitted to HSE as part of an ongoing review of explosives legislation

black powder - having determined that any substance you manufacture under the 100gram exemption cannot be stored for future use, the argument for you keeping 10kg of it in unlicensed storage is not going to happen. Additionally black powder is specifically defined in MSER 2005 as being the substances allocated the UN numbers 0027 and 0028. To satisfy the unlicensed keeping provision you would have to submit your home made black powder to HSE in an approved package in order that it can be tested in accordance with the UN criteria and allocated a UN number.

and finally - to acquire and/or keep black powder you also require a certificate issued under Control of Explosives Regulations 1991

MSER 2005 does not say anywhere that you cant make fireworks - what it does say is that to make any explosive article or substances in quantities greater than 100grams for the purposes specified will require the person doing that act of manufacture to be licensed.

Simples!

Of course, why didn't I think of that! (sarcasm)
Wait a sec, since I've joined the forum, all the vibes I've been getting is that making fireworks is a activity which is worse than terrorism.
Let me get this straight and ask everyone:

Under UK law, am I allowed to make a firework with a composition inside LESS THAN 100g? And I am talking about people who have no licenses whatsoever..
Not to be rude, but has the UKPS actually made a difference yet? Like have any regulations been altered or changed because of the UKPS nagging the HSE?

[exat808]

Under UK law, am I allowed to make a firework with a composition inside LESS THAN 100g? And I am talking about people who have no licenses whatsoever..
Not to be rude, but has the UKPS actually made a difference yet? Like have any regulations been altered or changed because of the UKPS nagging the HSE?

Yes - regulation 9 of MSER 2005 allows the unlicensed manufacture of any explosive for the specific purposes ( lab analysis, test demo etc). But with the proviso of the interpretations that the HSE have previously advised us of.
As yet UKPS has not caused any change to legislation - the reason for this is that the representations that have been made and the documentary submission are for an ongoing review of legislation and any change will occur in the future ( before April 2012). Evidence that small groups of "leisure" users of explosives can influence legislation is well established. Model Rocket users influenced a change in explosives legislation in 2009 as did cavers and divers in 2005. It is not a case of nagging but of making well balanced submissions with appropriate evidence to support them. Perhaps you could help?

[darkfang77]

Yes - regulation 9 of MSER 2005 allows the unlicensed manufacture of any explosive for the specific purposes ( lab analysis, test demo etc). But with the proviso of the interpretations that the HSE have previously advised us of.
As yet UKPS has not caused any change to legislation - the reason for this is that the representations that have been made and the documentary submission are for an ongoing review of legislation and any change will occur in the future ( before April 2012). Evidence that small groups of "leisure" users of explosives can influence legislation is well established. Model Rocket users influenced a change in explosives legislation in 2009 as did cavers and divers in 2005. It is not a case of nagging but of making well balanced submissions with appropriate evidence to support them. Perhaps you could help?

Very good to know. Here am I fretting about needing licenses to do this and that, why can't people make it clear we're allowed to make fireworks?
Personally I don't know what all the fuss is all about then.
Was there any fuss in the first place? If people are allowed to make fireworks, then what are we trying to change?

[phildunford]

Not to be rude, but has the UKPS actually made a difference yet? Like have any regulations been altered or changed because of the UKPS nagging the HSE?

I would like to mention that legislative change is only one of many reasons for the existance of the UKPS. For example, my wife, myself and other members have spent the last year doing the legwork for the establishment of a UK firework museum - I would say we have spent at least a day a week on this project.

One of the reasons we find it hard to apply pressure is that there are not enough of us. For some reason, of the thousands registered on the forum only a handful seem to want to part with £20 to become members - as I have said like a cracked record being a forum contributer does not make you a member of the UKPS.

Ammendments to MSER are only made occassionally, & we have one up for consideration - we also have a member on the mser committee, that in my book is progress.

I'm not having a go here, I just want to point out that about half a dozen people are working their socks off on about 10 different projects on behalf of the UKPS, the forum and the general firework community - we are doing our best!

[RFD]

Spot on with the acquire and keep license thing exat808,mind you did have me going a bit with the control of explosive regulations bit, Ive just looked at my license and its written across the top,doh!!! teach me to look at things a bit more.

[phildunford]

To get slightly back on topic, my understanding is that we can probably experiment with composition under the present regs, but not make a practical device, which is rather the point.

I'm sure exat will correct me if I am wrong, as he is an expert in the subject and (I think) a police adviser...

[darkfang77]

One of the reasons we find it hard to apply pressure is that there are not enough of us. For some reason, of the thousands registered on the forum only a handful seem to want to part with £20 to become members - as I have said like a cracked record being a forum contributer does not make you a member of the UKPS.

Ammendments to MSER are only made occassionally, & we have one up for consideration - we also have a member on the mser committee, that in my book is progress.

I'm not having a go here, I just want to point out that about half a dozen people are working their socks off on about 10 different projects on behalf of the UKPS, the forum and the general firework community - we are doing our best!

To be very honest, I would join the UKPS. Unfortunately I'm not outgoing enough to be socially confident to attend these UKPS conventions. That, and I'm in education.
I seriously did not realise that only six people were working their socks off. If there was a UKPS political party, I would vote for you, that way you could get more Santa's little helpers.
If you had spare paperwork needed doing for <minimum wage, i'd happily take them...

To get slightly back on topic, my understanding is that we can probably experiment with composition under the present regs, but not make a practical device, which is rather the point.

I'm sure exat will correct me if I am wrong, as he is an expert in the subject and (I think) a police adviser...

Err. Define "practical device", a firework that you are mass producing for public use and transportation off site?
Or a homemade flare which you expect to get you noticed when you're stuck at sea?
Right, i'm really confused now. I swear someone said that as soon as you mixed chemicals together to make a composition, you are breaking the law.
But now exat says it is not as long it is not over 100 grams, can someone clear this up for me?
It seems there are too many urban myths regarding the law of fireworks. This hobby sounds so underground.

Edited by darkfang77, 04 September 2010 - 10:16 PM.

[crystal palace fireworks]

I can only reiterate and support what Phil says.

This is a message to forum members/watchers who have not joined the UKPS yet. PLEASE JOIN US!, why I hear you ask?,....to put it bluntly, we need your membership money (£20) to exist and to pay for the administration costs involved with running the basics of this society, this includes costs involving postage, AGM`s, newsletters and stationary to name but a few.

The more members we get, the more powerful and credible we will become, = more influence when dealing with authorities for changes in firework legislation or even buying chemicals/supplies, or insurance as a group to start display companies, or cheaper accomodation for pyro related holidays/trips etc.

Not only that, we can then relieve Phil & Chris and the others (you know who you are) who work tirelessly by donating out of there own pockets, and by giving there free time on many tasks unbeknown to many of us.

In other words guys, you only get out what you put in!

[Peret]

I can only reiterate and support what Phil says.

This is a message to forum members/watchers who have not joined the UKPS yet. PLEASE JOIN US!

Can't disagree - as long as you can get the entire membership on the same bus, it hasn't got much credibility. But I shall reiterate a complaint made by myself and others in another thread earlier this year - why is it so inconvenient to join? Why insist on a physical postal application, with actual photos and paper photocopies of documents? There's no security in this. I could easily photoshop a scan, print it, and send it as a "photocopy", and you couldn't tell the difference.

If I could have joined online I would have, months ago. Just to show it isn't the cost that deters me, I just made a donation of the full membership fee. I did this from the comfort of my computer chair, without the inconvenience of stepping out and buying a postal order and a stamp - otherwise I wouldn't have done it.

[martyn]

Reading this thread makes me slightly embarrassed to have written some of the things I did in the one last rant thread. I apologise, I really hope I didn't sound as ungrateful as Darkfang77.
Darkfang77 - without meaning to sound unfriendly - please wind your neck in a little. I particularly found your offer to help the society for payment offensive, perhaps it was a joke.
I know for a fact that all of the committee and many of the members give huge amounts of time and indeed money to enable the society and the forum to exist.

We all really do understand your frustrations, we are all in a similar boat. We all want to be able to practice this hobby safely, legally and openly. What you must accept is that we have some very competent people working behind the scenes on our behalf.
They will get somewhere in the end, it will take time and it won't be everything you or I would like, but it will be what is achievable.(although updates are a bit scarce chaps)
There are also many members of the forum who are very experienced in firework making and beginners like us can learn from them because they are generous enough to share their knowledge and experience.
I emailed you a half a dozen or more pdf versions of pyro books to try and ensure you operate safely.

Children (Juniors) can join the society, as can social misfits, I'm proof of that
As for the law - read what Exat808 has written - he has spelt it out several ways.
A more informal interpretation is - Don't make fireworks because it is illegal and it can be dangerous! If you must make them - make them small and only a few at a time. Don't tell anyone you do it and don't annoy anyone when you use them. Try not to blow your head off as it will spoil it for the rest of us. No one is going to supply Barium (except possibly Sulphate) to a child - sorry but that's how it is.
Also stay away from Chlorate, Dichromate, lead, flash, and whistle - that still leaves plenty to worry about.

Slow down a little, chill, you have a lifetime to enjoy this hobby.

[crystal palace fireworks]

Can't disagree - as long as you can get the entire membership on the same bus, it hasn't got much credibility. But I shall reiterate a complaint made by myself and others in another thread earlier this year - why is it so inconvenient to join? Why insist on a physical postal application, with actual photos and paper photocopies of documents? There's no security in this. I could easily photoshop a scan, print it, and send it as a "photocopy", and you couldn't tell the difference.

If I could have joined online I would have, months ago. Just to show it isn't the cost that deters me, I just made a donation of the full membership fee. I did this from the comfort of my computer chair, without the inconvenience of stepping out and buying a postal order and a stamp - otherwise I wouldn't have done it.

Thanks for your comments & donation to the cause Peret = its very much appreciated.

Im sure these issues are being worked on by the staff & committee.

But I genuinely take your point about sending photocopies of driving licenses/utility bills through the post = anyone can alter/forge them through photoshop etc.

Do you think we would have better credibility if we asked perspective members to send us real documents of driving license etc through the post?,...these could be returned with your membership photocard, or do you have better suggestions for membership applications and security issues?

Im wondering if our recruitment processes/issues is a generational thing!

[darkfang77]

Reading this thread makes me slightly embarrassed to have written some of the things I did in the one last rant thread. I apologise, I really hope I didn't sound as ungrateful as Darkfang77.
Darkfang77 - without meaning to sound unfriendly - please wind your neck in a little. I particularly found your offer to help the society for payment offensive, perhaps it was a joke.
I know for a fact that all of the committee and many of the members give huge amounts of time and indeed money to enable the society and the forum to exist.

Oh, I did not realise that I sounded like that, sorry for that, I do need to calm down.
Actually I was quite serious about joining there, but as Peret says, one: there's simply too much formality involved to get my finger stuck out, we need to supply a whole range of identity documents, I have never actually seen my own birth certificate in my whole life, let alone a photocopy. Two: where it says the membership is for one calender year, does this mean that this spans from the month that membership starts to the end of the same year? It wouldn't be very cost efficient for anyone if they signed up in November (for example), and then have membership end same year.
three: I am still too new to this hobby to gain any benefit from joining the society.

Sorry if I sounded ungrateful, believe me when I say I didn't mean to.

Edited by darkfang77, 05 September 2010 - 10:46 AM.

[RFD]

Have to agree with Peret and Martyn, why the need for such formality to join the society,the joining fee is is very small in comparison to most clubs,society's,etc, but if you want numbers it got to be made easier,the need for security is lost on me surely its a society,and not a clandestine activity,i am equally guilty of not joining mostly for not having time/inclination to hunt for documents,and please this is not intended as a pop at the unsung/unpaid heros of the society its just an observation,to have any clout we need bums on seats,so lads n lasses can you make it easier for the bums(like me )to find a seat.