70 replies to this topic

[helix]

After having read through the MSER regs, provided that limited quantities of materials were to be manufactured/ stored then surely the acreage required could be reduced considerably?

I intend to be moving house in the next few years and would be looking for somewhere with a few acres. I would hope to be able to then pursue my hobby in accordance with the law. Is this not possible without having to buy a farm?

[exat808]

but then if farmer next to your site wanted to sell the land and build houses on it surly they would need planning permission which they would have to consider your business.

Sadly not the case - there is no precedent for refusing a planning application solely because the proposed development sits within the safeguarded area of an explosives site. The whole thrust of the matter is for the person who is the licencee to safeguard his distances and that generally means purchasing additional land as a buffer zone around the stores or process buildings..

[exat808]

Exat808 I understand what you are saying but 30-40 Acres or 500 Acres are vast plots of land. Is it because Peter stone is surrounded by forest? Were the criteria different for Edwin Bailey in the 80s I mean would that kind of set up not be posible now? I did google earth his house sometime ago and his plots was secluded but other houses were nearby. Also you say 500 Acres for a moderate operation. When I spoke to Ron he said his site was about 5 Acres. So does he own the road and layby just ouside his gate? I thought anyone could pull in there?

Maxman

For a manufacturing site the distances from each process building are determined by the HSE Inspector who issues the licence after careful determination of exactly what processes and quantities are required to be kept in in that location. I accept that 500 acres sounds a bit extreme so I will add some balance to the thread by saying that each application for a manufacturing licence will be very much site specific and the HSE can implement distances provided that the occupier takes certain mitigating measures in respect of the construction of his buildings etc.

[Arthur Brown]

You could possible licence a factory on half an acre. BUT it would be really tiny and have almost no storage. Remember that components and ingredients MAY be HT1 for storage and have big safety distances. (That lift cop hides BP which is a COER 1.1x high explosive needing full security and precautions, but when part of an explosive article can be as lowly rated and 1.4 according to the weights and sizes.)

500 acres of land purchased would be for a large facility and would ensure that there were no neighbours to complain within reasonable safety distances so Planning Permission may not have public complaints. Also if someone wanted to build houses up to your border you may still have a good safety distance. Anyone relying on land that is owned by someone else as safety distance is on a permanent knife edge lest they should sell to a builder for development.

Buy the acres and let them for crops or grazing with the full knowledge that their landlord owns the explosives factory. Use Goats and Geese for grazing and guarding duties!

[crystal palace fireworks]

I empathise with pyro PDC on this, I too would give my help to create & build a small club based firework making facility where we could experiment with small quantities in the middle of nowhere and out of harms way. the distances could in theory be drastically reduced if legislation was changed or allowed to include better design, more earth banks, blast walls and underground bunkers, or even further containment could be done with water filled IBC tanks, shipping containers or portakabins (temporary buildings) could be used as theoretical class rooms with cameras linked to live firework making elsewhere on site. Electricity could be provided with our own generators/solar power for lighting, and perhaps water stored in IBC tanks fed from underground bore holes/wells.

Why are we not allowed to have a setup along the lines of Rev Lancasters manufacturing facility, but with a added testing firing range/site? the only other idea is to perhaps approach the MOD to temporarily rent there land?

[Arthur Brown]

Why are we not allowed to have a setup along the lines of Rev Lancasters manufacturing facility, but with a added testing firing range/site?

The main issue here is that Ron Lancaster actually described his facility as a £2M investment that he cannot get back. SO as we (the Society) are currently valued at sub £2K we need a LOT of additional funding! As we could only get three people together at the Lord Mayor of London's firework display I really doubt that £2M of investment is reasonable.

[Night Owl]

Go to google maps, look up Dairy farm Rd, Rainford, look about 200 mtr south, that is poss a manufacturer site, they used to be for Ammo storage and they have around 10ft of soil around each one, now I believe they can be for let.

[Arthur Brown]

Apart from the practical issues, there is the greater security issue.

HSE need to be certain that all people involved with explosives are of extremely good character. On this FORUM there is no vetting, we don't even know who most of the members are. Maybe it's important to realise that this forum is a pin-board on the wall of the world for all to see and read and for anyone to join to post. I did once receive a forum email from a dot IN domain which is India. There is no knowing whether people of less peaceful intent gain from reading the forum.

There is NO WAY that HSE would sanction a factory where unknown people could do their own thing. There MAY be a possibility that HSE would consider a factory group say less than ten people as working directors of a manufacturing company, all vetted, all UK citizens of good history and character. However this would only be open to HSE approved people and would not be discussable in public space inc the forum ad the web. 24/7 security would be a huge cost as would CADding product for manufacture and transport. Then comes the issue of what could be made, HSE would need to be certain of it's intent and each HSE contact costs ~£200 an hour. Then comes the issue of funding The working directors would have to fund the project without selling product. Then comes the issue of continued existence There would need to be a mechanism for directors to be succeeded on the end of their interest or funds, this may need new fully vetted people being waiting "for a vacancy" which in times of financial stress may not happen.

Add to all that it would be most irritating if someone built a house inside the safety distance and caused the factory to close losing everything for everybody involved.

[exat808]

Apart from the practical issues, there is the greater security issue.

HSE need to be certain that all people involved with explosives are of extremely good character. On this FORUM there is no vetting, we don't even know who most of the members are. Maybe it's important to realise that this forum is a pin-board on the wall of the world for all to see and read and for anyone to join to post. I did once receive a forum email from a dot IN domain which is India. There is no knowing whether people of less peaceful intent gain from reading the forum.

There is NO WAY that HSE would sanction a factory where unknown people could do their own thing. There MAY be a possibility that HSE would consider a factory group say less than ten people as working directors of a manufacturing company, all vetted, all UK citizens of good history and character. However this would only be open to HSE approved people and would not be discussable in public space inc the forum ad the web. 24/7 security would be a huge cost as would CADding product for manufacture and transport. Then comes the issue of what could be made, HSE would need to be certain of it's intent and each HSE contact costs ~£200 an hour. Then comes the issue of funding The working directors would have to fund the project without selling product. Then comes the issue of continued existence There would need to be a mechanism for directors to be succeeded on the end of their interest or funds, this may need new fully vetted people being waiting "for a vacancy" which in times of financial stress may not happen.

Add to all that it would be most irritating if someone built a house inside the safety distance and caused the factory to close losing everything for everybody involved.

A lot of wise words from Arthur and other contributors to the thread.
A small manufacturing site should be achievable.

Application should be from a sole individual or a defined corporate body (UKPS Pyro Ltd !) thereby providing a conduit for legal processes such as employment and health and safety legislation.
The applicant should own or have a lengthy lease on the land
HSE Inspectors costs can be kept to a minimum by having a well prepared and detailed initial application. I have experience of HSE site licence applications and would freely consult for UKPS if asked.

[whoof]

After having read through the MSER regs, provided that limited quantities of materials were to be manufactured/ stored then surely the acreage required could be reduced considerably?

I intend to be moving house in the next few years and would be looking for somewhere with a few acres. I would hope to be able to then pursue my hobby in accordance with the law. Is this not possible without having to buy a farm?

Year or two back i looked at a site for a selfbuild project, there was an option to lease/buy amenity land with it, middle 'o' nowhere(northants), risk of development happening possibly but unlikely.
Looked ideal but was told in no uncertain terms that PP would not be forthcoming, club or not.

[Arthur Brown]

Now with that generous offer, all we need is a commitment from enough people of skill, interest and good character to fund enough money to form a company and buy some land.

However as the latest Royal Society lecture on fireworks attracted no-one and the City of London mayormaking fireworks attracted just three for a free fireworks display, real commitment isn't a great feature of the forum folk here.

[whoof]

No one seems to have mentioned location.
Small turnout for the Lord Mayors display indicates the problem , we are all scattered about.

I have so far looked at locations in Staffs, Oxon , And Northants.
All rural (greenbelt) and with 2 to 10 acres of amenity land whih from a safety point of view looked good.
As far as storage is concerned , as a club facility , How much is likely ?
Its not as though we would be storing tons surely.