70 replies to this topic

[spectrum]

Thats encouraging.
I have been looking for a while for a location for a semi retirment location (selfbuild eco house/self sufficient type thing)
Spec is such that it could well be a suitable place for a factory at the end o the garden type thing.

Keeping the factoy in mind are there any things in particular i need to look out for ?.

I understand the neeed for separation , are there any quirky bits too look out for ?

I agree with exats comments.

As for special things to look out for: start with location with respect to neighbours and planning. That will tell you whether or not you will face a debilitating fight. It would help if your plans are modest and sensible, if you want to build 12 inch shells in a shed at the bottom of the garden don't expect a no questions asked warm welcome from anyone. Are you looking to undertake personal research and development or manufacture commercially? In either case, what limits and ambitions do you propose - in terms of hazard types and weights? You can always start small and build from that. As for the quirky bits - go through the MSER Code of Practice, consider the types of building alongside the other things I have mentioned.

A sensible and professional approach is the best starting point, as I have stated already, the HSE don't exist to simply close people down or crush ambitions. Its is a regrettable fact that there are those practicing in industry WITH licences who have challenged the system in a big way and, I suspect, continue to do so. Faced with this type of carry on the inspectorate have no option but to take a thorough approach - if and when it turns to sh** they are left with egg on their faces. You can't blame them.

I would also suggest investing in developing an understanding of what is required of you. Join a professional organisation, pursue qualifications such as DGSA and demonstrate a knowledge of what will be required from you when you are up and running - at least be seen to be making the effort, then you will be taken seriously. They need to have confidence in you, it's up to you to provide that.

If there are enough of you out there seriously seeking to pursue this avenue then it would be worth forming a "Factory Group" to properly investigate the feasibility of the notion, the first items on the agenda should, I would propose, be the development of a technical understanding to underpin the operation of a manufacturing facility with individuals committing to areas of key specialist study, i.e. two members studying and sitting the DGSA course, two planning, two specialising in risk assessments etc. Collectively this knowledge will prove invaluable. If you show commitment to these areas ahead of an interest in making shells and mixing flash you would certainly be taken more seriously.

A bit of a drag to some of you I'm sure, but that's my opinion I'm afraid. I spend 90% of my time on preparation, paperwork etc. and less than 10% getting my hands dirty doing something dangerous - that's how it is, I accept it and am content with it.

I wouldn't dream of discussing Gareth's activities but I can assure all that behind the short clip of shell manufacture (staged for entertainment) there is a continuing and VERY substantial paperwork project which is and has for months been all consuming. If he feels it appropriate I'm sure he will provide a comment of his own.

[exat808]

I very intrested in the question so many people have said there is no way in the uk that you can get a licence to make bp because of really old laws therefore any stars bp based will not be allowed. (willows, brocades ect) has any manufacture got around this yet and how. as also burst is bp

This is a misconception.. BP manufacture is treated in exactly the same way as the as the manufacture of any other explosive. It may be preferable in the first instance to buy in BP for use pyrotechnic manufacture, although I accept that some purists may want to make their own BP.

[exat808]

I agree with exats comments.


I would also suggest investing in developing an understanding of what is required of you. Join a professional organisation, pursue qualifications such as DGSA and demonstrate a knowledge of what will be required from you when you are up and running - at least be seen to be making the effort, then you will be taken seriously. They need to have confidence in you, it's up to you to provide that.

Thank you.

I have supported a few members of UKPS in their applications to become Associate Members of the Institute of Explosives Engineers and this is exactly what Spectrum is talking about in his post. You must be able to display "competence" to the HSE. It will be a big leap of faith for the HSE to consider a UKPS application in the future so to support that you must have an abundance of supporting evidence relative to your ability to undertake the processes that you wish to have licensed.

[spectrum]

Thank you.

I have supported a few members of UKPS in their applications to become Associate Members of the Institute of Explosives Engineers and this is exactly what Spectrum is talking about in his post. You must be able to display "competence" to the HSE. It will be a big leap of faith for the HSE to consider a UKPS application in the future so to support that you must have an abundance of supporting evidence relative to your ability to undertake the processes that you wish to have licensed.

Thanks Exat, you've summed up what I was trying to say perfectly.

[exat808]

so can you get a licence to cover generic item like upto 6" shells using the A,B,C,D chemicals. (perchlorate based stars) or is it more specific like you can only make a red stars to build a 4" shells using blah blah red composition.

Have a look at the specimen licences on the HSE guide that I linked to in a previous thread - they may give you more insight into what can or cannot be done.

[Arthur Brown]

Each HSE person needs to have a "no accidents or incidents on my watch" attitude so we as total outsiders to legal manufacture may have problems convincing each HSE inspector that we are serious, competent and safe.

[digger]

OK Then Chaps.

Someone gave me a call to let me know about this thread. There are many issues that have already been brought up and covered. I may have missed some of the points in the conversation, however I will try and briefly answer a few in no particular order.

Yes it is not free to set up a fireworks factory, in fact there is a substantial investment that is required not only in fabric, land be it rent or purchase. There are many things that are not being considered in this thread such as transport boxes and 6 series testing etc.

The 2 million quid comment is a bit misleading. It can certainly be done far cheaper than this. I would imagine that if it were just being done for R&D purposes with nothing leaving the site then £50K should get you going assuming that you can rent an appropriate piece of land.

Regarding legislation, EXAT has covered some of this. However there seems to be an opinion that everything is very difficult. This is in fact far from the truth. The legislation is prescriptive, therefore it is easy. There are several sets of rules as long as you follow these then the HSE can't object (as long as you are a fit person, again there is a set of rules for this, so if you nicked a mars bar when you were 16 this won't be a problem unless you used a shotgun to get it).

But one thing that people seem to be missing is that there is far more to it than just MSER. It is just like running any other business where there are risks. You will need to be thinking about permit to work systems, working instructions, risk assessments, method statements etc etc etc. So basically a full management system needs to be put into place.

You will also need to get liability insurance (public, employers etc). This means you will need to convince the insurance company that you have the correct "competence" for what you are doing.

Yes planning authorities probably present the biggest hurdle for most. As they do not have to follow a set of rules they can make decisions determined by personal prejudice.

Safeguarding plans can cause problems for others, not always as EXAT points out. However in our case there is someone who wants to develop a site near us. However we would have to come to an agreement with them to change our plan before they would be allowed to do it.

PyroPDC. The black powder issue, there is no real issues with this at all as EXAT has pointed out. The confusion comes because this is a controlled explosive and as such comes under COER. This means that you would also require a COER certificate (RCA to transport it). This does however bring with it some interesting extra costs. For example we are putting in a couple off site stores in various locations. These will require alarm systems for the issue of COER certs. The police are insisting that we use intrinsically safe sensors inside the store which puts the price of the alarm up somewhat. We have been quoted between £4500 and £10000 per store for installation before ongoing monitoring costs.

PyroPDC effectively when you draft your licence you can put anything on it that you want, as long as your site and installation complies with the regs for what you want to do. Think about HT's etc. Making a six inch shell for instance you may argue that the finished device is HT3, however during manufacture it may be HT1 so you will need your shed to be licenced for HT1 for the appropriate quantity.

Anyway off to get my dinner now, maybe more later.

Edited by digger, 13 November 2011 - 07:32 PM.

[Arthur Brown]

My £2M comment wasn't exactly arbitrary, it was a direct quote from a conversation with Rev Ron Lancaster. It may be specific to his site but does indicate the level of overheads needed and at risk.

[digger]

My £2M comment wasn't exactly arbitrary, it was a direct quote from a conversation with Rev Ron Lancaster. It may be specific to his site but does indicate the level of overheads needed and at risk.

I always thought this is the number he was asking for his business if you wanted to buy it. Not really relevant for anyone just starting out, as I am sure Ron did not spend £2M to get the business going.

Edited by digger, 13 November 2011 - 07:41 PM.

[dr thrust]

right im off down Morrison's for some left over rockets, lol all this expense, red tape, hoop jumping, for something i can buy down the supermarket

[digger]

right im off down Morrison's for some left over rockets, lol all this expense, red tape, hoop jumping, for something i can buy down the supermarket

Yep, that's pretty much how most people view it. It certainly is not something to be taken lightly. There is a massive amount of work and learning required for no guaranteed outcome.

[exat808]

Yep, that's pretty much how most people view it. It certainly is not something to be taken lightly. There is a massive amount of work and learning required for no guaranteed outcome.

Reversing an economically driven trend - ie re-introducing fireworks manufacture to the UK may seem very much a pipe dream - but as this thread has hopefully demonstrated it is not a lost cause and is achievable.

[crystal palace fireworks]

Reversing an economically driven trend - ie re-introducing fireworks manufacture to the UK may seem very much a pipe dream - but as this thread has hopefully demonstrated it is not a lost cause and is achievable.

To my mind it maybe feasible to start manufacturing a UK pyrotechnic product for resale (this is not what the UKPS is about), and whereby one has a chance to recoup some of the starting out costs by selling a product and making a profit. but the current regs, hoops, licenses, fees, site visits, insurance etc one has to go through are not geared for a hobbyist club that just wants to produce pyro articles for research, invention, or the practicing of our art form in a controlled licensed environment.

I guess one of the real issues is the term `Manufacture`, and how the legislative bodies (rightly or wrongly) have freely misinterpret the word away from its true sense, and introduced it to some key peices of legislation as a get out clause to restrict many applications,...that said even £50K is too much for a society like ours to raise to start a club who`s membership is little, and who`s ethos is from a `not for profit` stance.

We maybe better off in the longer term to seek funding as a registered charity, and then apply for grants to build an education establishment, other than that we would be better emigrating to a country with less red tape,...anyone fancy moving to Brazil? they have now overtaken us as the worlds 4th largest economy!

Edited by crystal palace fireworks, 14 November 2011 - 08:43 AM.