102 replies to this topic

[pyrotechnist]

Could try it but you may loose some of the brightness and large light output that you can achieve by using metal. Will give it a test drive and get back with the results, I only have shellac and hexamine though as the main fuels.

[vaslop2005]

just remembered, i have 6kg of ammonium sulfate,

I think hexamine could be added to the flame, but it wont react inside the flame envelope, but will still cool the flame down, as it takes energy out of the flame to evaporate it, but why not just use a chlorine donor like parlon or PVC (or even ammonium chloride, as it takes energy away more efficiently, to evaporate), and organic fuels are out of the question, you've got to think of reactivity, of which magnesium (the only affordable option) is plenty reactive enough to decompose water (formed by ammonium compounds) carbon dioxide (from carbonates) and sulfer dioxide/trioxide (from sulfates), allowing the reaction to proceed

I think the most promising mix theoretically would be along the lines of,

40 ammonium sulfate
20 ammonium chloride
15 copper carbonate
25 magnesium (I'll try both 40# and 230#)

I will test this one soon, the only way I can see these stars taking off is if we can create a good blue, to 'complete the set'

[pyrotechnist]

Or if we cannot create a blue we need to at least create a good enough blue that wont be washed out via these stars, but hey this is what experimentation is for and it would be great to achieve a bright vivid blue. Up to now I have created vivid red, deep orange, bright yellow, bright pink, deep magenta. Without the use of perc this has currently saved me lots of money! dam you can even make coloured flash powder out of these mixes they are so universal.

Lucky with the ammonium sulphate , tell us the results once you have tried it! any how could your above formula be used to produce other colours by replacing the ammonium chloride with a different metal carb or sulphate and changing the copper carb to parlon for chlorine? I have also been pondering the idea of using magnesium sulphate as one of the main oxidizer's in my formulas to see what differences I can achieve.

[vaslop2005]

it would be nice to just have to replace the copper carbonate, and keep the ammonium chloride as a chlorine donor. When using ammonium perchlorate, I noticed that without and parlon and PVC you can still create fantastic colours at low temperatures, due to the chlorine in the perchlorate, and the almost non existent colour of ammonium decomposition. it would be nice to be able to replicate this with the chloride. The magnesium could 'steal' the chlorine. now I think about it, a blue seems like a lost cause with metals, copper is just too un-reactive.

I'll still give it a go though, and post my results.

[CCH Concepts]

I'm liking the fact i have actually been able to contribute to this, usually I'm just asking questions trying to understand what everyone else lol

although I'm still posting will this work question, hopefully ill be able to say this will work soon. lol

hopefully i might be able to start experimenting again soon, i have a friend who is interested in learning what we do, I'm going to get him to join the site. he thinking he might know a friendly farmer, so that will help alot.

Edited by CCH Concepts, 29 June 2010 - 02:32 PM.

[pyrotechnist]

Its all a learning process each day mate , hope you get back to doing what you like best soon! Looking forward to trying out green, and aqua and even lemon or lime green. What I like about these mixtures is that you can use them as stars, flares, bases for fountains etc. I wonder if you can achieve some sort of cheap strobe with this at all without using ammonium perc etc.

[CCH Concepts]

bearing in mind that the sulphate's vary in hydration some being pentohydrate and taking along time to decompose, maybe this could be used to strobe.

say using a magnesium sulfate with as lower hydration as possible and a barium sulfate with a high hydration they would take different times to oxidize the fuel. maybe strobing from white to green and back.

[pyrotechnist]

Could be possible! if not you could always assist it with perc or maybe even pot nitrate.

[MDH]

it would be nice to just have to replace the copper carbonate, and keep the ammonium chloride as a chlorine donor. When using ammonium perchlorate, I noticed that without and parlon and PVC you can still create fantastic colours at low temperatures, due to the chlorine in the perchlorate, and the almost non existent colour of ammonium decomposition. it would be nice to be able to replicate this with the chloride. The magnesium could 'steal' the chlorine. now I think about it, a blue seems like a lost cause with metals, copper is just too un-reactive.

I'll still give it a go though, and post my results.

Adding sulfur would form magnesium sulfate in the flame. This will prevent it from removing too much chlorine from the flame envelope. The only problem is magnesium reducing copper monochloride in a flame, so the question is how to ensure copper monochloride reforms quickly.

[CCH Concepts]

how about and inner and outer comp.

say a star consisting of

oxidizer
organic fuel
chlorine donor
copper compound

outer layer like a prime,

oxidizer
metal fuel
chlorine donor

idea being the outer layer gets hot enough to get everything going and produces large amount of chlorine. then the inner star burns, due to the heat from the used metal fuel the organic fuel will easily light and there will be an abundance of chlorine for the copper to bond with.

would this help?

[a_bab]

Since the topic derailed to the logical (better) alternative to the carbonates, read this very interesting doc: sulfates use in pyro

Before going too enthusiastic here, you should never forget: if something it's not in use yet, there has to be a reson behind.

Edited by a_bab, 29 June 2010 - 08:30 PM.

[CCH Concepts]

i had read a small amount of that before, but didnt have the full document, thanks for that.

this was interesting

Manganese sulfate: Perhaps the most interesting use of sulfate is the
addition of manganese sulfate (MnSO4 H2O) to aluminum sodium nitrate
flare compositions. Farnell et al.(1972) discovered that this compound
alters "the decomposition of sodium nitrate to form oxides of nitrogen
rather than its normal decomposition products of nitrogen and oxygen."
This change results in a 55% decrease in burning rate, a 155% increase in
luminous output, and a 466% increase in luminous efficiency!

could this be the answer to the low light output problem of not using metal fuels?

manganese sulfate
aluminum sodium nitrate
chlorine donor (parlon)
Copper sulfate

[pyrotechnist]

Interesting read, they may not be used for various reasons or because the manufacturers want to stick to the formulas they have been given and known best. I have made a good red, excellent orange, pink, magenta etc using carbonates and sulphates with Magnalium. They take a bit of heat to get going but once lit dam they are bright and HOT. I am sure with magnesium they will perform even better. I believe sulphates and carbonates have a great chance. I have also found oxides and oxychlorides to work as well. I actually managed to get a purple by using copper oxychloride and a very bright slightly blue on the outer edge flame using copper carbonate.

I am just waiting for some Magnesium due to Magnalium being a bit slaggy and temperamental if not fine enough. I find if you use Magnalium to use it in the mesh ranges of 200 - 300 otherwise you get uneven burn rates and more slag produced. If you use Magnalium in the 400 - 500 mesh range then you get a coloured flash powder.

[vaslop2005]

Adding sulfur would form magnesium sulfate in the flame. This will prevent it from removing too much chlorine from the flame envelope. The only problem is magnesium reducing copper monochloride in a flame, so the question is how to ensure copper monochloride reforms quickly.

I'm not too sure that their will be any oxygen produced to form the sulfate from the sulfur, i think it will just form magnesium oxide and free sulfur (that will burn outside the flame envelope) but that is what we are experimenting for.

Has anyone tried the ammonium compounds yet?

[pyrotechnist]

Not got any ammonium compounds in stock atm, just waiting for someone to test it and bring back the results . You can achieve a basic blue with this mix, you do get a nice blue ting in your eyes once they have gone out for a minute or so lol as a testimony of blue being produced. Now would Zink Oxide or Sulphate burn green? as Zink burns green but never got around to testing the oxides or sulphates etc. Other metals I want to try are tantalum oxide, niobium pentoxide and a few others.