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Anyone experimented with metal carbonate based colours?


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#61 CCH Concepts

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Posted 29 June 2010 - 11:50 PM

i have some ammonium chloride, i think i have some copper sulfate, if not its not hard to make, i am stuck with only MgAl not Mg, got plenty of different chlorine donors and organic fuels.

might buy some ammonium sulfate, barium sulfate and what other sulphate's i can get cheaply.

does anyone have any fine mesh Mg they fancy selling?

anyone know where to get or how to make aluminum sodium nitrate? looks like it might be interesting.



#62 CCH Concepts

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Posted 29 June 2010 - 11:55 PM

just thinking about it, is the text refering to

(AlNa)NO3

or

Al + NaNO3

#63 vaslop2005

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Posted 30 June 2010 - 11:05 AM

I'm sure its just aluminium and sodium nitrate flare mix

#64 CCH Concepts

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Posted 30 June 2010 - 11:45 AM

see the way it was worded it was like a nitrated Na/Al alloy, but id never seen that anywhere and couldn't find anything on it. so i think i came to the same assumption as you

#65 MDH

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Posted 30 June 2010 - 07:23 PM

I have never created visible blues with copper sulfate and ammonium chloride. Can we please see a video of this composition in action?

#66 pyrotechnist

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Posted 30 June 2010 - 08:21 PM

My semi-blue didn't use ammonium chloride at all if its me your asking but sure I will get some videos and upload them.
fireworks is my aim setting of is the game

#67 Potassium chlorate

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Posted 30 June 2010 - 08:27 PM

Ellern mentions underwater flare with barium sulfate already in his book from 1968:

Mg 16%
Al 12%
Ba(SO4)2 40%
Ba(NO3)3 32%

Here he stresses the fact that the sulfates are neglected in pyro, and that was already 42 years ago!

Edited by Pyroswede, 30 June 2010 - 08:28 PM.

"This salt, formerly called hyperoxymuriate of potassa, is
used for sundry preparations, and especially for experimental
fire-works."

Dr. James Cutbush

#68 pyrotechnist

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Posted 30 June 2010 - 10:27 PM

Could try replacing the nitrate with all sulphate and upping the Mg and replacing the Al with MgAl. But your right they are neglected, I still believe people like to stick to all ready tried formulas or formulas passed down through generations of family members etc or simply dont have the money or resources to do research into new formula.
fireworks is my aim setting of is the game

#69 CCH Concepts

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Posted 01 July 2010 - 12:13 AM

i have been reading what i can, and it does appear that as in most industries, people have stuck to the oxidizers they know and trust, its will be interesting to see how far this goes. at some point some stringent testing will be needed to see if there is a good reason they haven't been used.

#70 Potassium chlorate

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Posted 01 July 2010 - 05:37 AM

What do you think about changing Ellern's composition to something like this:

Mg 20%
MgAl 14%
Ba(SO4)2 66%

Barium sulfate is one of the few (if not the only) barium compounds that aren't toxic to the human body, at least not when digested. It also doesn't form hard cakes like the nitrate does. It costs about the same as the nitrate, though the price would probably go down, if the production of the sulfate increased.

Edited by Pyroswede, 01 July 2010 - 05:38 AM.

"This salt, formerly called hyperoxymuriate of potassa, is
used for sundry preparations, and especially for experimental
fire-works."

Dr. James Cutbush

#71 MDH

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Posted 01 July 2010 - 07:25 AM

You need a chlorine donor. Barium oxides are yellow.

#72 Potassium chlorate

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Posted 01 July 2010 - 08:31 AM

I don't think this torch was supposed to be green. It just says "underwater flare".
"This salt, formerly called hyperoxymuriate of potassa, is
used for sundry preparations, and especially for experimental
fire-works."

Dr. James Cutbush

#73 CCH Concepts

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Posted 01 July 2010 - 09:00 AM

at a guess

Mg 18%
MgAl 12%
Ba(SO4)2 60%
parlon 10%

this would probably be good for parlon binding with acetone.

#74 MDH

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Posted 01 July 2010 - 11:09 AM

In my own experience, sulfates require much higher levels of magnesium than chemically necessary.

I would say a better composition is this:

Sulfate, 53
Magnesium, 37
Parlon, 10

One I recently tried was this:

Strontium Borate, 4
CPVC Coarse grade, 1
Magnesium, 5

Not being particularly better than other red flashes I am not inclined to keep working with it, but it did make a fairly loud noise in the open.

This is essentially possible with any metallic oxyanion and I would encourage other members here to find and test them wherever possible if they are interested in developing colors without requiring perchlorates or chlorates (which are indeed very hard or expensive to find).

Look around.

#75 CCH Concepts

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Posted 01 July 2010 - 11:20 AM

with the borates, can this be synthesized using boric acid and a carbonate?

if so how much water to boric acid powder would you use to get the correct molar and what if any specific method?




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