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UKPS 2013 Gathering & Experimentation Day - 21st September - Near Stevenage, Hertfordshire.

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#31 digger

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Posted 08 August 2013 - 12:11 PM

Martyn,

 

Currently, yes we are restricted to 100g at a time and firing this off loose.

 

Assembling a practical device is something we're still seeking guidance on, as we don't want to do or encourage anything illegal.

 

I don't know about the finer details of what constitutes BP - I have a few kilos of sulphurless powder that has the same UN number as BP, but I guess that fact just muddies the waters even more.

 

You are correct MSER allows the manufacture of up to 100 grams, but COER required anyone acquiring BP to have an appropriate explosives certificate and making any amount of BP under MSER is considered a means of acquisition under COER.

 

We can't have one person with a BP certificate acquiring  all the BP that gets made.  However, there will be several people on site with certificates - If a certificate holder is in charge of a particular BP mixing operation then they can use their certificate to acquire what is made - however this will need to be done on a personal basis by the certificate holders.

 

Steve

 

OK, under MSER gun powder / bp is defined as an intimate mix of ammonium nitrate or sodium nitrate or potassium nitrate with charcoal with or without sulphur. The ratio's are not important as long it has any of the nitrates above with charcoal.

 

I guess the best option WRT BP is for someone with the appropriate certs just to bring along the BP so that more interesting things can be done with the 100 grams.


Phew that was close.

#32 Pyromancer

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Posted 08 August 2013 - 08:51 PM

Digger,

 

I quite agree.

 

I've got a cert and can bring along a 1kg of fine and 1kg of a courser grained BP.

 

Who else has a certificate and is willing to bring some BP along?

 

Steve



#33 Guest_PyroPDC_*

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Posted 08 August 2013 - 11:38 PM

so are you saying all this time the ukps have said about the 100g rule this no longer right that anything bp based need a aquire cert. as far as i knew and HSE allow us to do. as long as the 100g of comp is used that day for testing ect then you dont need a aquire cert. The aquire cert is only for buying commercial bp and using for practical use.

 

:wacko: man this is all confusing


Edited by PyroPDC, 08 August 2013 - 11:39 PM.


#34 Richard H

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Posted 09 August 2013 - 09:26 AM

Paul,

 

This is why we've been involved in the ELR process for the past few years. The outcome will be a very concise, definitive guidance document, which will be published in 2014 - that will explain what you can, and cannot do. It will be perfectly acceptable to prepare 100g of a composition, assemble a firework / pyrotechnic article with it, and test fire it - at the place of manufacture. You will require at the very minimum a COER acquire cert to cover your acquisition (by making) of BP-type compositions, and also flash compositions (which will no longer be exempt on schedule 1 of COER).

 

There will be absolutely no confusion once our document has been published, I can assure you of that.



#35 whoof

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Posted 09 August 2013 - 01:43 PM

I will have a spare genny on site if you want it whoof.


Is this the same site you are running the course the previous Sunday ?

#36 charlie3

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Posted 09 August 2013 - 01:50 PM

Yes buddy,

 

C.



#37 starseeker

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Posted 09 August 2013 - 07:30 PM

Digger,

 

I quite agree.

 

I've got a cert and can bring along a 1kg of fine and 1kg of a courser grained BP.

 

Who else has a certificate and is willing to bring some BP along?

 

Steve

I should have Steve,just been chatting to Gareth about it :)



#38 martyn

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Posted 09 August 2013 - 09:04 PM

me again, being thick again!

Why would there be any need for bp, Steve has said we will be restricted to burning off loose comps?

I don't know if I can get someone to do a shift swap with me so I can attend, I'd love to come but I confess I still don't understand what's allowed.

Is it literally mixing a small batch of a comp and burning it in a pile?

What about pressing a comp into a pellet for testing (star, comet) ? Obviously dextrin / water bound comps won't dry in  time.

Parlon stars perhaps - a mine is presumably a 'device' ? how about a stargun?

 

Richard, what you wrote above was very interesting and very encouraging, so thanks to Wayne and yourself and anyone else for all your work. Do you know if police force ELO's are aware of this and would accept that as a legitimate reason to apply for an A&K?



#39 digger

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Posted 10 August 2013 - 06:54 AM

me again, being thick again!

Why would there be any need for bp, Steve has said we will be restricted to burning off loose comps?

I don't know if I can get someone to do a shift swap with me so I can attend, I'd love to come but I confess I still don't understand what's allowed.

Is it literally mixing a small batch of a comp and burning it in a pile?

What about pressing a comp into a pellet for testing (star, comet) ? Obviously dextrin / water bound comps won't dry in  time.

Parlon stars perhaps - a mine is presumably a 'device' ? how about a stargun?

 

Richard, what you wrote above was very interesting and very encouraging, so thanks to Wayne and yourself and anyone else for all your work. Do you know if police force ELO's are aware of this and would accept that as a legitimate reason to apply for an A&K?

 

Maybe lift for very large fireballs?


Phew that was close.

#40 Richard H

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Posted 10 August 2013 - 02:44 PM

Do you know if police force ELO's are aware of this and would accept that as a legitimate reason to apply for an A&K?

 

Martyn,

 

This information will be circulated to all ELRs as far as I am aware. There will be some changes to what we currently know as COER in regard to the application form, specifically to accommodate people applying for these reasons.



#41 martyn

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Posted 11 August 2013 - 12:22 AM

Maybe lift for very large fireballs?

 

Now you're talking :)



#42 digger

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Posted 29 August 2013 - 02:48 PM

I have been having a quick think about a few things that we can experiment with.

 

What do you think the to following (I appreciate these mainly bang related, very little skill or art)?

 

1.) Large fireballs fueled with various mixes based on BHT(butylated hydroxy toluene)/Hexamine/Hydrogenated castor oil powder. All lifted with bp charges.

2.) Work out what the particle size limitation for detonation of Ammonium Perchlorate is.

3.) Try different sensitising chemicals with AP to see whether we can get it to go. Does anyone have any guanidine nitrate?

4.) Explosive composition mixing, for example a 100g flash charge with a bag containing 700g of KP and another bag containing 300g of dark pyro on top. Should be an interesting one that we could scale either way.

5.) Ghost mines (ethanol/chloride/bp lift).

 

I will bring a bunch of stuff for the above.

 

D


Phew that was close.

#43 starseeker

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Posted 29 August 2013 - 08:08 PM

I have been having a quick think about a few things that we can experiment with.

 

What do you think the to following (I appreciate these mainly bang related, very little skill or art)?

 

1.) Large fireballs fueled with various mixes based on BHT(butylated hydroxy toluene)/Hexamine/Hydrogenated castor oil powder. All lifted with bp charges.

2.) Work out what the particle size limitation for detonation of Ammonium Perchlorate is.

3.) Try different sensitising chemicals with AP to see whether we can get it to go. Does anyone have any guanidine nitrate?

4.) Explosive composition mixing, for example a 100g flash charge with a bag containing 700g of KP and another bag containing 300g of dark pyro on top. Should be an interesting one that we could scale either way.

5.) Ghost mines (ethanol/chloride/bp lift).

 

I will bring a bunch of stuff for the above.

 

D

Sounding good to me Gareth,

 

Its not every day you get to experiment with things like this :)



#44 Pyromancer

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Posted 29 August 2013 - 09:29 PM

I'll bring some detonators and C4 to do a shaped charge firing I've been wanting to do for a while, but haven't had enough time on the range to do.

 

I'll being a few extra detonators and a little more C4 so these can be used as boosters for Diggers Ammonium Perchlorate experiments.

 

 

If anyone has go an idea for something they'd like to try, post it on here, so it can be discussed and assessed before the event, if we think we can do any of the suggestions while staying on the right side of the law, then we'll give them a try.

 

Anyone interested in flash powder speed contests? - Fastest time over a 1 metre distance.

 

Someone has threatened to bring an oxygen/hydrogen generator to fill a weather balloon, which we can send up to a height before converting the gases back into water.

 

Other ideas welcome - get posting.

 

Steve



#45 megabusa

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Posted 30 August 2013 - 09:54 AM

I would like to experiment with the internal fusing on Cat 2/3 cakes, so I can get them to fire as individual shots or on 'banks' of 4 etc.

 

Eventually I want to electrically fire them with my system for a 'mini pyromusical' in my garden

 

Would this be permitted ?







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